What if the Western Allied declared war on Russia rather than Germany? Remember they both invaded Poland. I agree this is kind of unlikely, but at the time was not impossible.

Had they declared war with Russia, and not Germany, probably would have saved most of Eerope alot of pain. Hitler might not have done many things the way he did. I am definately NOT someone who supports Hitler or his ideals.

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No Hitler isn't in my good books either. I'm just posing the question, Is it possible that Stalin would be today's "Hitler" and the Soviet Evil Empire would instead be the Nazi Evil Empire?

Which things wouldn’t Hitler had done? Invading Poland? He already did that and France was next on his agenda followed by the SU. He wouldn’t put the Jews, the Slavs, the Christians (in that sequence) to a “final solution” if Britain declared war on Russia, and not Gy?

Please elaborate.

If the US was chosing the lesser of the two evils it would have been Hitler.


Hitler ruled Germany with a love and passion of the people, they adored him and followed whath e said because they loved him.

Staling ruled through hate and fear the people followed what he said out of fear of his wrath.

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Out side is America!

Dear Andy: since this is a what if senario (all fiction)you can never be sure just what would be different and what Hitler would or would not do. For instance: Even if there was still a Germany/Italy/Japan deal going on here. I do not see that Hitler would have gone to Greece, since the Italians could not hold their own, nor do I see Hitler sending GFM Erwin Johannes Eugen Rommel, to Africa, and the units that made up the DAK.

Hitler would undoubtedly have handled many things differently, because he even though would still have many pressures, he might not have send so many people to concentration camps. I am sure that since he hated the Jewish people, gays, political undesirables and the like, those people would undoubtedly still been worked to death, or just plain murdered.

I think Hitler would have still invaded stalins Russia anyway, and would have had those other forces on hand, (DAK, and the units used in Greece) to lend more of a hand in the invasion of Russia.

The Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine units also would have been used better elsewhere. The U-Boats would have had a slightly less stressful job, since they shouldnt have had to be used in a non-theatre. I would think the majority of those units would all be deployed against Russia, the U-Boats unleashed to hunt cargo ships from Murmansk and the like.

Hope this makes any sense, best regard, Carl.

I forgot to add in my last posting that, had we joined the Germans, the Germans would have had a greatly easier range of things they could do. They wouldnt worry about attack from the US forces, and the US forces would have participated in the brunt of the fighting. The Germans wouldnt have been so widly dispersed, and the defeat of the Soviet Union would be somewhat easier.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
I forgot to add in my last posting that, had we joined the Germans, the Germans would have had a greatly easier range of things they could do. They wouldnt worry about attack from the US forces, and the US forces would have participated in the brunt of the fighting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I Don’t think so. In Hitler’s mind American’s weren’t much better people (as a race) than let’s say Ukrainians. First of all, no U.S. GI of Jewish or African decency would have been allowed to enter Europe. Second, like the Ukrainians, the majority of the U.S. personnel would have been used for secondary tasks like administrative, logistics, supply, KZ and extermination camp guards...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Yankee:

Hitler ruled Germany with a love and passion of the people, they adored him and followed whath e said because they loved him.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Uhm, in this case, I’m wondering what all this German KZ’s were filled up with???

Honestly, I don’t see too much differences in Hitler’s and Stalin’s terror towards their own people. To both Terror was an equal tool which was consequently carried out if propaganda, falsified information, social bribery and the coordination of all social and political organizations failed. Both’s intense was to silence any possible opposition to their dictatorship of terror – including both the basis of potential opponents AND those who were suspicious of gaining too much power within the respective system.


<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by AndyW on 04 December 2000 at 07:33 AM</font>

In reply to AndyW's earlier posting. Hitler might not have cared much for Americans but, I find it interesting at how badly, he in his twisted mind, just how badly he wanted the western allies to join him against Stalin. If that had happened, just look at how much that would have made it easier for Hitler to shorten his battlelines, and to consolidate his units.

It has to be admitted that the Germans did kick alot of butt. Even though they were tired of war, there still would have been more than enough Germans who would have wanted to continue the war to keep the Russians out of Germany. I think that was Hitlers main goal, but who knows exactly what a mad man is thinking?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AndyW:
and extermination camp guards...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all...if Britian and France declared war on Russia...and They fought along with Germany...Germany would not have declared war on the US and thus...the US would have played no part in the European war. The US would have fought only in the Pacific according to this senario...For there was no reason for the US to declare war on Russia.
Also if Germany fought along with France and Britian against Russia...i doubt the extermination program would have happened on such a horrible scale...and in no way would soldiers from France, Britian, or (US according to the quote) be extermination camp guards (at least i would like to think so)
Also i don't think that germany would have risked her alliance over an extermination program.
Germany would also have to deal with whatever race or religion the British and French soldiers were. If they had problems with that i'm sure the Alliance would not last long.
Also if Russia was defeated i wonder how easily it would be to divide the country up...or would the British and French allow Germany control over the whole Soviet Union(i doubt it)
If Germany was allied to France and Britian and they then defeated Russia...i see a war between them not to far off regarding some other crazy reason...either Hitler won't share possesions or allow British and French troops into conquered russian territory or Germany attacks France whatever. Maybe then the US would play a part?

I dont think the US would have been involved in the war unless Japan provoked us with a pearl harbor lik attack.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yankee:
I dont think the US would have been involved in the war unless Japan provoked us with a pearl harbor lik attack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was talking assuming the Japanese did attack Pearl Harbor. Germany was hoping Japan would attack Russia and take pressure off her forces if Germany declared war on the US.
However if Germany was allied with Britian and France...and the US supported them...then why on earth would Germany declare war on the US? It wouldn't thus the US would not be drawn into the war in Europe. If Japan attacked Pearl Harbor the US would have declared war on Japan and thats it...and then fight a pacific war. The US would have no business in Europe fighting Russia unless Russia did something to threaten the US.


<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Ron on 06 December 2000 at 07:50 PM</font>

Errr... I guess the 'love & passion' was gone when he decreed it was better Germany should perish amid utter destruction since the people 'failed' to live up to his expectations when the war was lost - largely due to HIS lack of a grasp on reality & big ol' blunders....

Uncle Joe portrayed himself as the same sort of 'father figure' to the USSR, and many Russians responded with a patriotic zeal similar to that of the Germans.

National Socialism.....
Soviet Socialism....
Different rationales - similar tyranny.



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Killjoy

well said! couldn't agree more

So you are saying that the BEF and the French armies together with the Germans would attack Russia!

Then they would have been crushed.

*IEN, Kriegsmarine, French Marine attacking Murmansk, Archangelsk, ...
*around 500 Infantry divisions & 20 Panzer Divisions attack Russia
*bombing of Luftwaffe, RAF, French Airforce at Russian airfields: around 6.000 airplanes

Probably they would invade in 1940 between mai and juli. And at the latest moment in november they would have conquered Leningrad, Kiev, Rostov and of course Moscow.

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Well, I think that a French-German-British allience was not plausible at all in 1940 (or whenever) but let's be a little mischievous...

The Red Army in 1940 was a chaos (remeber the Winter War), but the Western armies were not fully mechanised nor strong enough to beat the Soviet Union... There would have been a tremendous amount of men available, but the USSR would have recovered after a while. Perhaps, later, with a horrible attrition war it would have made peace. Let's think with the help of new heavy bombers for the Urals, British invasion from Central Asia. Landings in Murmansk as in 1918... There are many posibilities...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Although Russia would have likely been defeated by a western Alliance of Germany/France/Britain, as soon as the USSR was finished, the wartime alliance would have crumbled. Germany's ambition in the east would conflict with Britain and France desiring more of a regime change. Eventually, there would of been a war with Germany versus the Western Allies; and the Western Allies would have lost.

But lets say that Russia somehow defeats this alliance. Then Britain and France are still screwed, because with Russia in control of Germany and the big Red machine plowing ahead, the Western Allies would quickly fall. So either way, Britain and France joining Germany is signing their death warrant.

BTW, any of you guys played Command and Conquer: Red Alert? Similar scenario...

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

(this was a double post, caused by me hitting the stop button and adding some text to my original post. so thats how its done...)

[ 07 September 2002, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: dasreich ]

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

Nice thoughts, das Reich...

And no, I haven't played it.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun