Having just a bit of reading on the North African campaign, I couldnt resist to propose two what-ifs:

1) Italy does not invade Greece. Disregarding that the German invasion of Greece and Yugoslavia would then not have happened either, and that Barbarossa would then have started early, this would keep the Allies from sending two of their best infantry divisions in the desert, as well as an armored brigade to Greece, where they would be solidly trounced. Given that the Allies at the time (January 1940) had crushed the Italians in Libya, taken 130.000 prisoners and occupied half of Libya, I think that these three units staying in Africa would have facilitated a further advance. Given that the Allies had earlier attacked the French fleet in Northern Africa, and had invaded Gabon (and in our timeline went on to invade Syria, Lebanon, Madagascar), I dont see them NOT invading Tunisia, too. Whereas the Vichy forces in N-Africa switched sides in 1942, I dont think this would happened in 1941, as the US was not in the war yet. So if we let Vichy France go to war against the Allies (while Marokko and Tunisia were colonies, Algeria was an integral part of France proper, and would have to be defended), we suddenly give the Axis another ally, complete with large colonies in AFrica and Asia as well as a large navy. Tunisia would give the Axis vastly shorter supply lines than to Libya, and would subject Malta to attacks from two sides. An alternative DAK would have had vastly better starting positions, and the Allies would have been on the end of very stretched supply lines. Finally, having lost Libya, the Italians would finally have incentive to send all their three armored divisions to Africa.
What do you think....is this What-If plusible??

Henrik


Henrik

People say the Nazis wanted North Africa for petrol which is correct but i think Hitler wanted North Africa and the Mideast because of his own occult reasons, he most likely wanted Juresealum so he could collect religiouly significant treasures in hopes of adding to his own occult powers. They did some pretty whacked out thing for their whole occult following.

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Out side is America!

LOL well i think Hitler probably wanted N. Africa for more than occult reasons...this isn't Indiana Jones!
Regarding the axis getting Vichy france as an ally...i don't think it really would have meant anything. I don't think the Vichy government would have waged a war against the allies...i think that they would have only defended their territories. Otherwise for any other activities...i think the french would not have helped the germans as much. The only difference i see in what was said is that maybe the French woyuld have defended longer thats all.

Hitler went to Vienna after it was annexed and immediatly stole this Arrow which was a mystical occult Item that is supposed to give the holder godlike powers. (musta broke...)

Hitler also had special SS units riding around Tibet on horseback looking for ancient Aryan artifacts.

Im just saying It would have interesting to see how Hitler would have reacted to the taking of Jerusalem. Would he have flattened it? Or had the swastika flying over it and done some whacked out shit

While the Vichy fighting on the Axis side might not have mattered all too much (though an additional 100.000 men in Northern Africa DO matter), the largest difference would lay in, that the Axis would have gotten far better LOCs to Africa, both because of better geography, but also because the French fleet would have been added to the Axis war effort. Bases (both u-boat and air) in Marocco would have menaced Allied shipping in the Atlantic, too.
As to Vichy France doing nothing but defending, it actually bombed Gibraltar during the war.

Henrik

Another thing that would have happened, i think, is that a lot more Jew's would have been killed as concerntration camps would have been set up once the allied presence was out of Africa/Jerusalem/Mid East. Oil would have fallen into German hands - this would mean less - no oil for the Allies and more for the German Panzers. I think that the Allies would have carried out a D-Day in the Mid East though, if this was to happen, as oil would rendered them almost incapable of fighting just about anywhere Mech Units were positioned.

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Mussolini

"Blood alone moves the Wheels of history." Benito Mussolini.

"What the proletariat needs is a bath of blood." Benito Mussolini, speech in Milan, July 22, 1919

"Liberty is a duty, not a right"
--Benito Mussolini

They're wernt that many jews living in the mideast at the time maybe a couple thousand max.

hahaha i think yankee is trying to boost the amount of posts he has!

Hehe...he sure is.

You have to remember that the Jews were starting to flee from the Nazis/Germans etc because of the killings going on. A bunch went down to the Mid East so you're still looking at a lot of deaths if the Germans captured Jerusalem/Mid East. Do you know what they thought about Muslims?


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Mussolini

"Blood alone moves the Wheels of history." Benito Mussolini.

"What the proletariat needs is a bath of blood." Benito Mussolini, speech in Milan, July 22, 1919

"Liberty is a duty, not a right"
--Benito Mussolini

Actually about one third or the polulation of Palestine in 1939 was jewish, roughly half a million in all. To that comes the large numbers of jews that at the time lived in the Middle East Elsewhere. Large concentrations were especially located in Morocco (approaching one million Israelis can trace their ancestry back to Marocco), Iraq and Yemen.

Henrik

Woops my bad

Before its capitulation to the Nazis, French Tunisia and Algeria supported over 120,000 French colonial troops, many of them proven during confrentations against native tribesmen in Morocco and later, Algiers. The French fleet at Mars-el-Kabir was capable enough to offer the Italians a difficult proposition, especially when given possible support by British battlewagons and submarines in the theater.

Similarly, Hitler desired the Middle East not only for its vast reserves of oil, but also to bring Turkey into the conflict, which would have allowed a thrust through the Soviet Caucasus, into Stalin's flanks.

The OKH theorized North Africa would fall with the aid of only four Panzer divisions early on. Had the Italians and Germans instead concentraited on Egypt as opposed to Greece and Crete, they might have taken advantage of popular anti-British sentiment among the Kingdom of Egypt. This would certainly have upset Wavell's defense signifigantly.

The French? They could possibly throw back Italian and even German encorachment, given their airforces and the large numbers of proven colonial divisions in the region. I doubt Tunisia would have been an "easy nut" for Grazziani to "crack" if you will.

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"Do not piss down my back, Senator, and then tell me it rains." - Augustus Caesar

I don't believe N. Afrika was ever on Hitler's agenda. But once he arrived there to save his colleague in arms, Mussolini, might as well have a goal once he knew Rommel was capable. Why not the oilfields or even better and more attainable, the Suez.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

This part is for Mussolini:

The Germans did not like the Muslims. They hated to serve with them in the field or in camp. This is because the muslims "soldiers" were notorious for being the most sloppiest of "soldiers" that the German Officers and NCO's had the dis-pleasure of serving with.

In one of Ospreys Men-At-Arms books on WW2, they have several photos attesting to the Germans disliking at having to serve with these so-called soldiers. You can just look at the faces of the Germans and can "read" that for yourself. Just look at their appearances-look at the way they march-their lack of attention speaks for itself.

Then came the fact that one of the Waffen SS units mutinied. They killed several of the German personnel. I don't remember much on this and some of them were executed. Himmler was so enraged, that hs immediately disbanded that unit. Can one blame him?

I'm not saying that the other Muslim unit didn't do their share but, this other unit was nothing but a thorn in Hitlers big toe, let alone a hemmoroid in Himmlers backside.

For Desert Journeyman--Very well said!

For PzJgr: Thanks for the Berthold Berecht quotation. And or "The Cross Of Iron" reference.
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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Wilkommen. I like it myself. I just saw the movie again. Gets you in the mood.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!