The order #227 ( also know as "Not One Step Back" ) was issued on 28 July 1942. This order was given at the onset of the infamous battle we know as Stalingrad.

The Caucus then Persia? The Germans barely held their supply lines at the outskirts of Moscow. Sorry Von Run, your living in a dream world my friend.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Im not sure I understand. The order #227 came at Stalingrad after typhoon. Moscow was in no danger. Why would Stalin ever consider leaving the city at the battle of Stalingrad?


Lets also not forget, that Stalin refused to trade Paulus for his son who later died in the hands of the Germans for the very same reason.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Weird. I was told by my friend in Gomel that Stalins son died outside the city fighting the Germans. They even have a monument there. I never questioned it and I never read the writing on the monument.

Lore?, some claim put out for reasons of grandeur? There is also a family known by the name Sukhoi there but they have nothing to do with Sukhoi aviation.

How credible is what wiki says?

What if the Soviets had captured Berlin in 1944?

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I actually found an article not too long ago ( several months perhaps ) in the news about the FSB putting an end to the where abouts and other speculations as to what happend to Stalin's son. The official report read the he was a POW and was killed trying to escape.....

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

People sometimes say to me: "Be careful! You will have twenty years of guerrilla warfare on your hands!" I am delighted at the prospect... Germany will remain in a state of perpetual alertness.

Adolf Hitler
August 29th 1942

-interesting eh?

There are other versions of his death too,

Suicide
Red Cushing and The last days of Lieutenant Jakov Stalin - Ireland and SCW -

Revealed: how Stalin's brutal massacre at Katyn shamed his PoW son into suicide - Telegraph

Shot while trying to escape
Stalin's Son Died in a Nazi Camp

The Death of Stalin's Son - TIME

Yakov Dzhugashvili - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

so all that would have happened if the Germans got Moscow is that it would have been a perpetual guerrilla war like Vietnam or Iraq but for the Germans because Russia is just too big of a country to control as well.

Just a note: Iraq is not a "guerrilla war." For that to happen there would have to be an orgainzed nationalistic front acting against the US and Iraqi government rather than the loose group of unassociated terrorist factions under local war lords that fight each other almost as much as they fight the US or Iraqi government.
Iraq would now be more characterized as a civil war than a guerrilla war.

At least while Muqtada Al Sadr is laying low

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

insurgents = guerillas, same thing. Were not fighting a Army/Military force in Iraq. Just like if the Nazis took Moscow, they would be fighting Russian insurgents/guerilla warfare.

for fact we are fighting a combined military force of several nations, not guerillas in the mideast, as we did in Nam. the VC was not a guerilla force nor was the particpation by China whom when we dragged there carcass's off the field were always taller than the dead VC

define combined military force? Iranian weapons going into Iraq? foreign terrorists? left overs from Saddam Hussein's military? I'm saying we aren't fighting a force that wears military uniforms, Vietnam we were fighting the NVA, the North Vietnam Army, we were in fact fighting a well trained army unlike Iraq. I don't like Vietnam and Iraq comparisons.

If the germans took moscow, I like the red army had plenty of men to retake it, as was said another staingrad, or kursk, i think sheer weight of numbers would drown the germans just imagine, that could have been the bloodist battle in history, larger then the largest tank battle, or the battle for berlin. Russian would have prevailed in the end.

Yeah the Eastern front was a war of attrition and the side with more numbers was sure to come out victorious.

Alot of people think that the day Hitler invaded Russia was the day he lost WWII. Think of the numbers:

Germany: 50 million people
USSR: 150 million people

When you really think about it, even with thier allies there was no way the Germany could occupy the soviet union. In a war of attrition like this the Russians would almost surely retake moscow if it was taken. Also, consider the supply lines; German supplies were stretched out because of the distance they had to travel to get to the front lines, and they could not produce as much material as the Russians did because they worked material to exceptionally high quality.

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"Live as brave men; and if fortune is adverse, front its blows with brave hearts." - Cicero

no doubt, they wouldn't have the troops to garrision all the cities as well as all the borders, plus have enough troops to combat any other nation, even if they did conscript ostuppen troops. These troops would have to kept at a bare miniumin, because you can't have them outnumbering your own men, they'd probably revolt.

I agree, the invasion of the Soviet Union was his downfall. But the 150 million Russians, I mean its not like the Germans were up against 150 million Red Army soldiers though. If they could have shock and awed them and blitzkrieged them to death the millions of Russians would have submitted to the foreign invader don't you think?

lol however somehow I don't think I would have worked

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

34,476,700 Russians were mobilized, about 9 million of them died and 16 million wounded.
13,600,000 Germans were mobilized, about 3.5 million of them died and 4.6 million wounded.

The Russians waged a total war from the very beginning. Those people who didn't join the army worked in the factories like "animals"(As Hitler put it). The point is, every pair of hand was used from the start.
The Germans, on the other hand, didn't wage a total war until 1943 - one year before the allied invasion and too late to win the war. After the call for a total war, Germany was able to triple its war production even under heavy strategic bombing.
So you get the picture....

One major weakness the German army had was that only a small portion of the army was mobile. The panzers, in many cases, had to wait for the infantry to catch up. That's one of many reasons why the speedy defeat of Russia didn't come.