The WW1 doctrine was quite offensive as well, one thing is doctrine, the other is practical circumstances. And yes, they did not want to repeat the same carnage in WW1, therefore the doctrine was based in more or less mobile warfare.

Problem was having a sclerotic High Command who believed the utmost in daring was to make an 'offensive' movement into Belgium and defend there, and providing a decent wireless communications network, but that's another matter.

Back to topic, then...

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I think that if the Germans had captured Stalingrad it would have had a far more serious effect than if the Germans took Moscow; Stalingrad opened up the oil fields to what is now Chechnya and the huge oil-producing city, Grozny. It would ahve been a huge leap for the Germans, because they would not have to wait for fuel anymore that came from Germany. They could produce oil-wielding stations in southern Russia for thier tanks.

Grozny and Stalingrad were far more valuable in terms of industry than Moscow.

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"Live as brave men; and if fortune is adverse, front its blows with brave hearts." - Cicero

(As)If Moskva would fall, it could have had a massive impact on the USSR. The political side and the mood of the people is hard to asess, but it could have meant a sue for peace.

Another what if is how the Soviet citizens would have reacted to the Nazi brutality.

No matter what Hr. Hitler may have said about wanting years of guerilla war in the east, it would have been a disaster for Germany. Their occupational armies would have been bleed white.

In my opinion Op. Barbarossa is a clear example of mankinds stupidity, and inability to learn from history.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Hufflepuff, I'm sure you haven't noticed, but we have already discussed this very matter here more than once. There was no way the Germans could have extracted any useful quantities of refined products from the Caucasus oilfields, let alone moved it over.

This judging mainly by their performance at the Donbass mines and the Maikop oilfields. Nothing came out!

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it is know known that if hitler had chosen to go for moscow rather than securing his flanks Stalin would have surrendered. Stalin considered seriously to surrender once he saw how blitzkrieg effevtiveness swapped his army on summer. If the war in russia was won then the most of the industrial power would have been poured in the the western front and the allies would have been unable to reach germany

Could you provide a source for this, please?

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Best Regards,
JW

Is that so.....

Perhaps a source?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

This is totally new to me and I know I haven't seen anything on this before. I would love to see the source(s) for this too. Or is this just your opinion. And if it is why do you think he would have even thought of it?

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Plus how would the Germans be able to sustain such a long front (using vonRunstedt's scenario) with proper reserves. The sheer length of the defensive line would be to great for the germans to defend effectively, as well as dealing with partisans that would be operating in the entire german countolled russia.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

they should have streamed past the urals into siberia.

who the germans? if so my point is how could the germans sustain that move while defending the north from the russians.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

well, they couldn't have. the plan was for the northern force to veer south and encircle moscow but the grander plan was for von leeb to stream past the urals. army group center was bogged down because of guderian's recommendation to swing south while still in ukrain to encircle budeny's 600,000. the fall of kiev was the most spectacular land victory in history but it delayed the march to moscow by more than 3 weeks.

ok but this is about what if moscow had fallen from the attacks and the atfermath of that not about what did happen.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

the germans would have held moscow because it was a critical point to the west and any major russian offensive would have to start there. it would have given both von leeb and von runstedt time to pull out of their respective vectors and support von bock's flanks and rear. had that happened, zhukov would have had to delay his counter-offnsive, even with the siberian division already poised for a counter-attack.

well they would have attempted to hold moscow, staingrad would have still had happened and the russians would have pushed to get moscow back making it another stalingrad, look what stalin did to keep staingrad, do you think it would have been any different for moscow

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

the germans were trying to hold the entire front at the time the sixth army was encircled. that's why von mantein ordered von paulus to stand. the 6th would have broken out had it been ordered to but to do so would have endangered the southern and central fronts.

during the moscow campaign, it was different. the germans were still primed for advance.

You are missing the point, read the whole posts before posting your won please
Look this is a what if scenario based on what ifs right? OK then use that first thread to base your posts.

My point is as I said before "well they would have attempted to hold moscow, staingrad would have still had happened and the russians would have pushed to get moscow back making it another stalingrad," Now what do you think of this, do you agree on this or something else. I have no problem with your opinion at all what ever it is, however don't quote me real facts as if it is a what if scenario please.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

Hitler never intended to go past the Volga River.....

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

maybe not but he still wanted stalingrad

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

Considering that Stalin had previously sent out peace feelers to Germany in November, the fall of Moscow might have forced an armistice in favor of the Germans.

When were they primed to advance? Not towards the end of the offensive that's for sure. They were on their last legs and those were frost bitten. They may have actually gotten into the city but that would have been a deathtrap. What tanks they had would have been useless and I assure you that infantry rule in a city battle, not mechanization. The worst place for a tank is in the city, especially a large one like Moscow. It would have at best been another Stalingrad. Or worse.

I have heard of that but never seen any proof.