Im bet loosing Guderian, Skorenzy, Von Bock would have left at least a minor dent in the German war machine.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Oh what about Model, Von Runstedt, Rommel or Goering well actually I reckon lossing Georing would have probably helped the Germans or maybe Donitz was on leave and he died would that mean no more effective wolfpacks

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

Blowing Goering and Hitler up would have truely helped the Germans immensely.

If the Russians blew up Hitler the German generals would have probably made for peace and that would have been that .

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So maybe the Russians should have just let the Germans talke Moscow

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

I agree, but you might have added others to the list as well.

Come to think of it, if these plus the rest of the nazi party top-snakes were blown up, what would keep Germany from joining the Allies?

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From 1941-1942, the Germans wouldn't want to join the Allies due to their military performance.

From 1943-1945, the Germans wouldn't be able to join the Allies due to their military performance.

U are evil

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The same as Alexander had done when Napolean captured moscow...move the capital to another city, burn the majority of property before it could be considered plunder or trophies of war...and make the German forces transport say 3 meals a day for 300,000 troups, fodder for 100,000 horses...yes the main railhead,artery of Russia stemmed from Moscow...but to assume Stalin would say,,,good show old chap, here you go, you win,,,take what you will and do what you want???
Unsure as to the historical accuarte events,,,as i am more sure some here are more knowledgeable...but in Napoleons plight...yes they did capture moscow...but what then,,,their troops where starved...frozen...lack of adequate shelter to survive a year before action could resume in the spring fall...so they turn around and headed home...thus the Czar attacked..and if Napoleons forces where anything like the German at Falaise during a retreat, or stopped in the Ardennes, trying to head home, pull equipment to defend oneself led to a shamble/chaos, and the Grande Armee payed heavily, and costly during this retreat back to France...

I have to agree, especially with bf109 emil, and several of you other posters. If the Germans had gotten into Moscow it would been a serious trap. Supply is a problem. Harassment on their flanks is a problem. Mines and anti-personnel devices everywhere in the city, plus "stay-behinds" (snipers / guerrillas) would cause serious loses. All of this, coupled with the fact that there would still be a major amount of Soviet forces which had not been brought to battle. The Soviets proved that they could hang in for a battle of attrition. The Germans could not afford it for long. Also, and occupation of Moscow could have been used by Stalin as a serious motivator for the Russian people and army.

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If the enemy is in range, then so are you!

As bad a trap as Stalingrad later became.

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This remiands me something i should have recalled much earlier. Back in 1980 a lecture on the Franco Prussian war described how Paris as a rail hub aided the besigers. The railroads converging from several directions enabled the attackers to make converging attacks.


A look at the map suggests the RKKA would have the same advantage. The railroads from the east and south east, plus the local interconnectig tracks would help the approach of several armys on converging axis. The Germans seem to have been trying accquire the same advantage from the west by their flanking attacks. But, these failed through lack of strength. Also the Germans lacked enough railroads engineering units to restore all the capacity they needed. The USSR would have more or less intact railroads, and a considerable resifual construction capability to keep the running.

I suspect German defends of Moscow would be further hampered by depending on one or maybe two patched up trunk lines, with little or no supporting tracks or other infrastructure. Wile the RKKA retained the ability to pile reinforccements and ammunition into the battle along their surrounding rails.

The map brings another question. The common assumption in these threads is the remaining Soviet industrial capacity was mostly off in Siberia somewhere. However just up the road from Moscow is the ciy of Gorki. As i understand it that city and others nearby had been well developed as industrial ceters since the 1920s. If so then this suggests the 'bolshiviks' are in much better shape for military supply than often susposed.

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I forgot my password, can I use yours?

siberia might counterattack

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When I feed the poor, they call me a saint,
but when I ask why the poor are hungry,
they call me a communist.

So Moscow is captured, numerous cities in Soviet Union where captured...does anyone really believe Stalin would have fell to his knee's and begged to surrender?? or perhaps done what Alexander did when Napoleon captured Moscow, is to move his desk to another city, and carry on???

Besides a lot of blood was spilt in order for Hitler to capture Moscow, with the intention of flattening it and making a lake in it's presence

Lenin? You mean the Soviets took his corpse with them? Lenin died at the age of 53, on January 21, 1924.

I thought that Lenin's body was evacuated to Tyumen, in Siberia?

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Good point, and what i was trying to say, as most think, Moscow falls, Germany wins, Hitler is victorious...Stalins millions of troops in reserve might differ, and what was scene as brutal warfare in terms of the Eastern front...does anyone think the Soviets would have begged for mercy as the LUFTWAFFE'S attempt to have Britain do likewise by bombing London...with the scorched earth policy, fodder for the horse drawn army already had to be shipped over 500 miles, and another 600 to the new soviet headquarters/capital...might be some skinny horses reaching the new Stalin war room/location...

Personally. I don't think there would be any difference. The tide was turning as soon as the wiermacht entered Russia. If the Wiermacht entered Moskow they still would have had to enter other Russian cities. The debarcle that was Stalingrad proved that although the Germans were a force to be reckoned with, they were still not capable of taking complete control of Russia. Look at Leningrad, Although the Germans held the city in seige, it could still not overpower it. I don't think that just because Moskow was the capital that it would made a difference to the strentgh of the Russian people especially as the munitions were coming from beyond the Urals.

Nope he was moved to Kubyshev in an armored train with a specialist who worked constantly on his looks.

This was the only time that Lenin's resting place has been disturbed.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

on this link, but the new post concerning "the Russian front" got me looking for this old post I put up on the lame THC forum back a bit. I hope it doesn't disappoint.

The Gorki T-34 plant was east of Moscow by about 240 miles (460 km) and connected by rail, to both Moscow, Leningrad and the Caspian sea, east of the Volga river, and that plant itself was in existence since in 1929 when the first trucks (Ford-AA) and Ford model A cars were built in Nizhny Novgorod from parts shipped from the USA (before they converted to using Ford machine tools and stamping units to produce their own parts). This was supervised by both Henry Ford himself, and Ford personnel all through the twenties and thirties. In late 1941 the tank production machine tools and such were transferred to Nizhny N