If the war in Europe had lasted six months more and the Allies had decided to use the atomic bomb on Germany - which targets would they have picked do you think? My vote is Berlin and Munich, but what do you think?

Enjoy - Chris Ray

Wilhelmshaven or Bremen, major Industrial Centres...not just morale breaking targets

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I would have picked the Ruhr Industrial Regions for the war manufacturing facilities located there, then Schweinfurt for the Ballbearings factories. Next would be the great Naval ports of Wilhelmshaven (god forbid, as it is such a beautiful city), Kiel, Bremen etc. Berlin because of its locations for so many important govt functions and military leaders.

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Chris :

I think you have to take this What if and throw it out the door ! Stalin and Roosevelt had already made up the agreement with out Churchill's thoughts on this, to divide up Europe with the Soviet Union occupying the lion's share. The big bomb was never a consideration.........

I know, I know, it's a what if ? !

E

Erich

Sorry I can't agree. The A-bomb was developed in response to a possible threat of such a weapon being developed by Germany. Although how exactly the bomb would be used in Europe was not discussed, nor was how it would be deployed against Japan until the last possible moment. The Manhattan Project was by no means sure of success and Roosevelt and Churchill could not plan on the basis of a "long shot". The bomb was never discussed with Stalin, indeed it was deliberately kept a secret from him. (Apart from the fact that a Soviet spy ring had already breached its security). It was not until the bomb had been successfully exploded that Truman mentioned it to Stalin and then he went into no details merely saying that America had a new and very powerful weapon. The evidence suggests that,if the war in Europe had continued until August 1945, then the Aliies certainly have used the weapon. It was always considered that it was being developed for use in Europe. Indeed, after Germany surrendered, there was some doubt if the bomb could be used to any great effect on Japan.

Chris Ray

Facts have come light recently that the Germans may have been able to employ their own nuclear weapon.
NOT, a nuclear bomb, but an airburst weapon containing irradiated sand. The evidence shows the Germans may have built one or two of these weapons, but never used them because of US and UK retaliation, dropping nerve gas on Germany's population centers.

Henshall, "Vengeance:Hitlers Nuclear Weapon"

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Contaminated sand?? sheesh, and I thought I had heard everything of course this doesnt sound as bad as the supposed "Germ Bombs" or "Dust Bombs"that US Airmen dropped on Koreans during that war. that of course was Communist Propaganda at its best and we have to wonder if Goebbles really offed himself in 1945

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by talleyrand:
Facts have come light recently that the Germans may have been able to employ their own nuclear weapon.
NOT, a nuclear bomb, but an airburst weapon containing irradiated sand. The evidence shows the Germans may have built one or two of these weapons, but never used them because of US and UK retaliation, dropping nerve gas on Germany's population centers.

Henshall, "Vengeance:Hitlers Nuclear Weapon"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The U.S. and allies did not have a working "nerve" gas. The Germans had developed "Tabun" but did not produce that much of it. It was the Germans who posed most of a threat to cross the "chemical" line. The U.S. stockpiled blood agents (primarily mustard agent) in each theater of operations just in case it was needed for retaliatory use.
As a note of irony the only instance of a chemical attack in the entire war was on the Italian port city of Bari. The U.S. had several cargo ships in the harbor including one which held the entire theater stockpile of mustard gas in its hold. The Germans picked that day to bomb Bari very effectively, sinking the freighter in question. The citizens of Bari and a lot of military personnel were gassed without knowing what the source of the injury was since the cargo was a very deep secret. At first we thought the Germans had used gas, but it was quickly hushed up when it became evident that a German high-explosive bomb had resulted in the allies "gassing" themselves.

Yeah, I read about this incident in one of the more recent issues of WW2 Magazine. Interesting stuff.

I recall reading somewhere a really good article on why poison gasses were never used during the war, I'll try and track it down for you guys.

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There was a very good documentary about Germany and the bomb produced on this side of the pond for the BBC "Timewatch" series last year. It would seem that the German team had grossly miscalculated the amount of enriched Uranium they would need for a bomb and could never have hoped to produce it. For his part, Hitler seemed to have little interest in the programme. However, if they had produced a warhead, imagine that married to a V2! There were also plans on the drawing board for a multi-staged rocket that could have reached New York and Washington. Did you know, as a matter of interest, that in 1943 the German flew a prototype four engined aircraft to within fifty miles of New York and a U-boat with equipment to launch a V2 in 1944? Makes you think doesn't it.
Also as a matter of interest, the designer of the Messerschmitt 262 was taken to the US after the war and designed the Sabre jet. The Sabre was, in fact, the next project that the designer intended to develop for the Luftwaffe. Imagine Flying Fortresses and Lancasters having to contend with Sabre jet-fighters!
The war in Europe was, as Wellington once said about Waterloo, "A close-run thing, the finest damn thing you ever saw"

Chris Ray

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
Contaminated sand?? sheesh, and I thought I had heard everything of course this doesnt sound as bad as the supposed "Germ Bombs" or "Dust Bombs"that US Airmen dropped on Koreans during that war. that of course was Communist Propaganda at its best and we have to wonder if Goebbles really offed himself in 1945 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is truth to this tale. A U-boat was intercepted by allied forces,its destination was Japan, it carried a wide variety of things (at this time Germany was a bout to collapse and wanted to help Japan), among them were heavy lead lined boxes, in these boxes was radioactive dust. If the dust was to be dropped above a city the following fallout was atleast equil to that which would follow an A-bomb blast.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Ray:
Also as a matter of interest, the designer of the Messerschmitt 262 was taken to the US after the war and designed the Sabre jet. The Sabre was, in fact, the next project that the designer intended to develop for the Luftwaffe. Imagine Flying Fortresses and Lancasters having to contend with Sabre jet-fighters!"

Chris Ray<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Sabre was an original American project but utilising captured German research it was transformed what would have been a mediocre straight winged aircraft into an excellent swept winged aircraft. The wing might have been a design that the Germans were planning to use to improve the Messerschmitt 262 but I am not too sure.

An aircraft design existed at the end of the war that looked similar to the Sabre, it was called the Focke-Wulf Ta 183, it was intended to enter service, in limited numbers, at the end of 1945. Kurt Tank (the designer) went to Argentina at the end of the war and designed an aircraft it was called the FMA. I.AE.33 Pulqui II, it utilised all his knowledge. The MiG-15 was rumored to be derived from the Ta 183.

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The Americans used Japanese cities to test the effectivness of the two types of A-bombs. To do this they needed targets that had not been previousely bombed. Bearing in mind that it would probably would have been the case with Germany as well. What cities would have been targeted? And what cities had not been bombed at the end of the war?

[ 26 July 2001: Message edited by: Madcap7 ]

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Oh I dont doubt the exhistance of this stuff. For one, one of the U-boats mentioned belonged to a small U-Flottille, in which my vet friends of U 181 were a part of. These U-boats were based in Singapore, for the last 6 months of the war.

There had always been a U-boat presance in the Pacific, and they did haul all kinds of stuff between the Axis powers. U 181, had also been used to transport some very important things.

Im not surprised at the radiated sand, because if they are also capable of making Nuclear Landmines and Handgrenades, I do not doubt its exhistance.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I havent looked for sources, but Im pretty sure that the UK started producing Sarin in '44. I was under the impression that Soman was the one they couldnt copy.
The Bari incident was nasty in that the Italians who were affected by the mustard gas, their first reaction was to dive into the sea to wash it off. The water being inundated with mustard gas, only burned them worse.
The Uboat with the U-235 was the U-234, a converted mine layer. I have a full post on this at onwar.com, in the forums. Check it out.
I have scanned pics of bases and schematics of different ballistic missiles. Will post later.

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Unless there was a fear that the germans would use such a weapon I dont think they would have dropped the bomb in Europe. There would have been too much of a worldwide outcry. Keep in mind by this time that the allies had been fed a steady diet of propaganda for years about the "fiendish sub-human japs"

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Dear Billy - Still can't agree. I read recently about a PhD student doing research in the Truman library in the early 1960's. Truman was still alive and would often assist at the library. When the student realised who he was he immediately asked the question "Why did you drop the A-bomb on Japan. Was it to impress the Russians?" Truman's reply was that "No. I ordered it to end the war. I didn't think at the time about impressing the Russians. That would have been a good idea, but I'm afraid it didn't occur to me at the time."
I'm pretty sure that he would have taken the same view over Germany. And, the Germans were equally vilified by the Allies. The "Huns", after the concentration camps were discovered, were equally considered to be inhuman.

Chris Ray

Tallyrand, thanks for the link, I will go check into iot as soon as I am done here &lt;

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

The war would have had to go on for much longer than six months in Europe because that much time was required to acquire more fissionable material for another bomb. Ever wonder why two different bombs were dropped? There was nothing left for quite a while. If you wait longer than six months, you're facing a completely different strategic picture because something crucial must have happened in Europe to enable the Germans to stop the Allies.

However, assuming that the bomb did exist and it was to be dropped, I think they'd have picked Munich. Munich was more or less untouched by bombers thanks to its location in the heart of Europe (neither planes from England nor from Italy could reach it).

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I would think they would head straight for Berlin, if the allies dropped an A-Bomb for the simple reason that alot of war material was being manufactured in and near there, plus having various High Command HQ, there as well.

Britisha nd russian aircraft always were in reach of Berlin--long range bombers and I think even Mosquito aircraft had access to Berlins airspace. I just finished reading--well about 2 months ago--a book about the last days of Berlin. It was excellently done with many many interviews from soldiers and civilians and dissidents. They talk about many of the raids on Berlin.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Two different types of bombs were dropped to study the different attributes of Plutonium and Uranium bombs.
The Hanford and Oak Ridge reactors both came online shortly after Nagasaki and IIRC, the US had 12 bombs in its inventory summer of '46. I'm pretty sure if the Trinity bomb is "field tested", the US could drop a total of 5-6 bombs by Christmas if the situation warranted. Bomb production could have been rushed.
A Mushroom cloud over the Reichstag would have most likely ended things quite quickly.

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You can't rush a-bomb production. If you could, half the nations of the earth would have them.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

HUH?
Constructing the reactors is the most difficult thing, hard to rush. Once the reactors are online production can be varied widely.
Safety vs. Production
Decreace safety, increase production, and vice versa. Early on fissionable material was produced at a minimal rate due to lack of experience and extremely tight safety margins. Production could easily have doubled or tripled easily while likely not that big of an increase in hazard.

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It's a sick, sick world. I'm a happy man.