G'day

What if?

What if Russia had not stopped at the Elbe and would fight the British and America to conquer Europe for communism? How would SHAEF react and what could they do? Would Russia be able to do this?

Popski

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Wenn ist das Nunstrück git und Slotermeyer? Ja!.. Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Monty Python's Killing Joke

Great What If?

If the Russians had not stopped at the Elbe, all that would have resulted in was losing more Russian lives as they would have HAD to turnover that conquored territory.

Now had they ignored the allied agreement, and actually wanted to fight the western allies, Gen George S. Patton Jr. was more than ready to fight them and he had had an "agreement" with some German Baron or Count, that had already instructed his men on what to do had the Russians and the Western Allies come to blows.

From vets I have talked to, they were more than ready to take on the Russians, having joined the Allies. They cannot be blamed for that as they wanted the Russians off of German soil, and many wanted revenge against the Russians for the countless and needless deaths caused by Soviet soldaten who decided to rape and murder girls, young females and Omas.

One wonders what could have been...........

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

G'day

If... then ould it be possible to invade Russia via the backdoor with the Pacific forces at Vladivostok, with help from Japan or via India?

Popski

__________________
Wenn ist das Nunstrück git und Slotermeyer? Ja!.. Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Monty Python's Killing Joke

An interesting tidbit of info is that Japanese soldiers were kept on in certain garrisons, paid and supplied by the US into 1946. Ostensibly to keep the PLA out of them.
During and after WWI less than 20,000 Czechs basicly held Siberia by controlling the Trans-Siberian railway. The railway is pretty much the only avenue(most roads run parallel to the railway also)for a modern army to traverse the difficult terrain and at several choke points, especially the 22 tunnels in a 40 mile stretch of mountanous terrain near Lake Baikal, the railway is easily defended. 100,000 Red army troops could most likely hold Siberia for years against a Pacific assault.
The number one point to make is the that the Red army was at the end of a long difficult thrust and had fought hard taking heavy casualties in Eastern Germany while the Western allies had pulled up to halt along the Elbe and had reorganized, pooled supplies, and rested. The Elbe river would be a nasty barrier for the Soviets to force as the kickoff for an attack, with the Western allies having air superiority. The Polish Home army to some extent still existed in the Soviet rear and could be tapped to perform terror ops. The Western Air forces had far more aircraft available generally with better aircraft and better crews. Most Soviet airpower was tasked to tactical support, the Sturmovik ground attack aircraft was one of the most plentiful. US and UK airpower was tasked to strategic bombing with its fighters evolving into long range air superiority craft. The Spitfire, P-51, P-47, and Meteors in huge numbers would quickly clean European skies of Soviet aircraft. There may have been no Trinity test, most likely we would be talking about the Moscow Holocaust, 3 million Muscovites die in .12 seconds, on this forum. Bridges, rail marshalling yards, tanks parks, railroad convoy's, supply depot's, and truck convoy's would be mercilessly pounded.
The Soviets outnumbered the Western allies on the ground, had superior AFV's, and through a Darwinian process their command structure had evolved into a well oiled machine of war. Against the superior Naval and Air forces of the West they would stand little chance. The Germans had tasked their air power for tactical force, which the Soviet had mimiced, and arranged their defences against. The Soviets had early on written off the Strategic air campaigns as a sideshow ignoring the improvement of the campaign later in the war. The Soviet defences would have been unprepared for the bombing onslaught that would hit them like a sledgehammer. From airbases in India, China, Germany, Japan, Norway, and Alaska the entire Soviet Union would be open to attack from the air. The damage on practically undefended production facilities in Eastern Russian and Asia would be something never seen before, eclipsing the damage to Germany. The Yak-9u would be the only Soviet aircraft able to fight the Allies over Russia. Its pilots were for the most part, under par compared to Allied pilots, and I would assume factories producing these aircraft would be hit hard and first.
The initial campaign of this action would therefore be the defence of the Elbe positions in Germany while the Air Force bombed the Rodina and Navy through opening up ancillary theater's bled the Soviets with a thousand paper cuts. This would take time, and a Rhine fallback position would be built by the Allies that most likely could not be breached. By the spring of '46, supported by several nuclear attacks(according to US time tables as many as 14 bombs could be deployed at this time, add up the populations of the ten largest Soviet cities{excluding Moscow, remember we hit it last year}, lets say four B-29's dont get through, you come up with a figure saying 5 million Soviets die in a single day),the Allies would advance through Europe facing a Red Army gutted by Air power,redeeming Billy Mitchell.

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It's a sick, sick world. I'm a happy man.

G'day

Thank you Talleyrand for a most informing story. So the way into the SU via the pacific is out, and through the Himalaya doesn't seen a good option. Does anyone know if it would be an option to attack through the Middle East. How many troops were still in North Africa at the end of the war? An to Carl, would the western allies have taken the German POW's out and even have rearmed them?

[img]smile.gif[/img] Popski

__________________
Wenn ist das Nunstrück git und Slotermeyer? Ja!.. Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Monty Python's Killing Joke

Well said Tallyrand..

For Popski: The Japanese had already attempted a fight with the Russians before and were soundly whipped by the forces commanded by General Zhukov.

One thing that was resoundly feared by the allies was, that if the Germans and Japanese should link up by invading through India. Most certainly, as some Indian sects wanted nothing to do with England and wanted no longer to be under their rule, most certainly would have joined the German Army in their fight with the British.

However, as is well-known, the British had a great Ally, in the Ghurka Peoples. The Ghurkas were and still are, very VERY elite troops and are much feared (rightly so)

The nail in the tire on this was that the Japanese had their own agenda of where to go and what to do, basically ignoring anything on what the Germans wanted. Had they cooperate with the Germans much more, then the allies would have had a much tougher time in fighting the Axis.

One major mistake the Japanese made was to garrison useless islands, which in turn could easily be surrounded and cut off their communication and supplies thus wasting the men manning these garrisons whom in turn could have been used for better purposes like: winning the war.

Now for the German answer you asked.

I think that had a fight started between the Russians and the Western Allies. It is very likely that many German soldiers would be used, as they had an incentive to continue fighting the Russians i.e. stopping the mass murders and rapes, and to regain their lands and maybe to also hope for an equality among the other European nations when all was said and done for ww2.

General Patton definately wanted to use German troops. He "knew" that these men had much experiance and also respected his former opponets fighting capabilities. The Western Allies had over a few million Axis soldiers as POWs, and that would have created a HUGE and instant casche, of well trained and veteran soldiers.

Most certainly, I believe they would have used all the Axis soldires who were on what they called a "White List". Meaning that these units fought bravely and acted correctly and treated POWs correctly. Units like the Grossdeutschland Pz Korps, the Brandenburgers, Panzer Lehr Div, Afrika Korps, and many other units like these elite ones.

Having these millions of willing soldiers under the western allied command, would also make the Russians think twice about causing too much trouble. Many of these German POWs, would have already been well rested and could be employed quickly on the front lines. The newly captured soldiers could be sent to a rear area, and taken care of and rested.

After a relative short perion od time, these men could be switched with men already fighting at the front, creating huge reserves of fresh units--just like the Russians were doing.

Hope this is a satisfactory answer. It is strictly my opinion, but it COULD have been possible.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

G'day

This is ofcourse a "What if"forum and than any idea leads to another. Crossing the Elbe would have been a huge step but I can't imagine SHAEF would't have thought of it beforehand. Russia was a backstabber in Poland so why not keep on going. The thread this gave is what we now call the Cold war. Aren't there any records still hidden in the archives on this matter?
In strenght of forces what had the western allies at the Elbe and what had the russians?

Popski

__________________
Wenn ist das Nunstrück git und Slotermeyer? Ja!.. Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Monty Python's Killing Joke

Hello Popski: The Russians had in the area, around 2 million men. The western allies probably not too much less than the Russians--that is if you combined the Amis, Brits, Canadians, French etc. Plus all those from other countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Belgium, etc. Then, had there been this problem, you can add the 3 million or so German soldiers we had in custody.

Then together, we would vastly outnumber the Russians in tanks, mobilization, paratroops, navy fleets etc etc etc.

Id would think we would have outnumbered them at least 2 to 1 if not 3 to 1. They wouldnt stand much a chance. Their lendlease supplies and foor and medical auid, would be cutoff.

Plus had we let the Germans keep their vehicles and weapons, like the Uboats, tanks etc, the Russians would not be able to withstand the whole power of the western allies and the Germans and their allies. Plus, that might have given Japan a chance to attack through Siberia again, or attempt it again, and this time with appx 2 or more million soldiers. At that time, mid 1945, Japan still had over 4 million soldiers in the field. So it could easily be 6-1 against the Russians.

Then had Japan surrendered when Germany had, then we could add all the forces in the Pacific theatre of Operations to this total. At that time, there were appx 15 million people serving in just Americas armed forces, with about 1/2 already overseas. England had probably 2-3 million, france about 1-2 million-not including former Vichy and POWs from the wars beginning. And it can go on and on......

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I would say that in the long run, the Russians would have gain much ground and perhaps have given the western allies a nasty blow since they did have superior AFVs but the Russian air force was no match compared with the western allies as the germans found out

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

IMHO, the Western Allies would not use German troops to DIRECTLY fight the enemy. Notice I said directly. Germans most certainly would be used as aircraft and vehicle mechanics, truck drivers, AA gunners, supply troops, cooks, and every other non combat role. I seriously doubt we would hand them guns. Most definately, the Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe would no longer exist and if German boats were to be used, they would not have German crews.
An interesting note is that the French outfitted nearly an entire armored division with captured German vehicles(Some US halftracks were used), it was serving in Bavaria in May of '45. It was equipped with 157 German tanks, and 23 German Assault guns. I would be interested in knowing how well Panthers and Tigers performed in French hands against the Soviets.

The Soviets massively outnumbered Western Allied armies in men in May of '45. Paper Strength of the combined Army's and Air Forces:

Soviet 13.2 million soldiers(about 7 million in Eastern/Central Europe)

Soviet Allied Eastern Europeans 300,000 in combat, a trained manpower pool of 2-3 million if tapped

US 12 million (remembering these are spread from Morocco to Alaska to Okinawa, about 4 million+ are in Europe)

UK 4 million(spread around the world, about 2.6 million are in Europe, less than a million at the front)

British Commonwealth 400,000 in Europe

France 437,000 (150,000 in Germany, the rest are in Italy, France, and spread throughout the colonies)

Belgium 650,000(all in Belgium)

Netherlands 400,000 (all in Netherands)

Finland 270,000

Soviets=7.5 Million in direct support of European front line. 6 million more ready and close
Western Allies= 5 Million in direct support of European front line. 1 Million more ready and close. 4 million US,UK troops in Pacific and US that can shifted, with difficulty, would take 6 or 8 months for the first to be combat ready.

__________________
It's a sick, sick world. I'm a happy man.

very interesting topic, especially about all the german POWS that might be thrown back into the fight. Now, I have a silly question about doing so :

These POWS would have to be re-issued military gear : Clothing, weapons etc.
What would they get? German uniforms? American? And weaponry? Germany was in ruines and would not be able to produce adequate weapons/ammo.


This would leave the following picture in Germany :


American forces, british forces, Germans in german uniforms, germans in english uniforms, germans in american uniforms....... sounds like a silly question to some maybe, but it would be a logistical nightmare. your thoughts?

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*** We shall not retreat, nor shall we surrender. If we cannot stay here alive, we shall stay here dead***

G'day

Thank's tallleyrand for your info. You earlier mentioned the use of the A-bomb, That would have been an option. But did the SU know of this weapon?
And to Mart, I think the uniform's would be the last of their problems,if they even had that many uniforms to spare.

Popski

__________________
Wenn ist das Nunstrück git und Slotermeyer? Ja!.. Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Monty Python's Killing Joke

Tallyrand, the only think I kinda disagree with you on is, not the numbers of men available to the Russians and their Eastern sattelite units, but also, that a huge portion of those troops were not up to par. The Russians were also suffering from logistics as we were, and they had fewer resources they could call on.

It seems I have heard or read about such a French unit being equipped with captured German weapons and vehicles.

The Wastern allies would have blown the Soviet navy out of the seas--easily, same as with their Air Forces. Just look at some of the talent we would have been able to use: Erich Hartmann, Guenther Rall, Martin Drewes, Johannes Steinhoff, Adolf Galland, Hans-Ulrich Rudel, and hundreds of other German aces greats. Then you could filter in with the hundreds of Panzer and Assault gun aces, like Ernst Barkmann, Bodo Spranz, etc etc.

For the Kriegsmarine, you would have greats like: Wilhelm Dommes, Wolfgang Luth, Erich Topp, Hans-Gunther Lange, Reinhard Hardegen, Juergen Oesten, Rolf Thomsen, Heinrich Dammeier, Otto Westphalen, Otto Kretschmer, Klaus Feldt, etc etc.

True it would take time to get things in order and make these men fit for battle, but when they would be retrained, and reequipped with capotured German inventory and American and British inventory, I have a serious doubt that the Russians could stop them.

It is known that if Patton had his way, these men would have been used in actual combat, not just defensive roles. That would be too outrageous of a thing to not use the trained pool of soldiers that you had.

It would also boil down into, trading German lives for British and American lives--fortunately or unfortunately.

The allies DID use many German and Japanese units for things well after the war ended. For instance, they used German units from the "white list" for many things, such as acting policemen where they had no available Feldjagers/Feldgendarmerie.

Japanese troops were also used in the exact same way. These units were indeed, armed with pistols, rifles, submachineguns and machineguns. In some cases, like in Austria, and near there at wars end, complete German Armored and or Motorized units, were used in areas as a buffer against the Eastern Allies from gaining too much ground and to make sure they kept their parts of agreements.

Uncle Joe itsself, didnt like that one bit, but what could he do about it? Not a thing one.

These men were used untill the allies were able to bring up more men to replace them with. After that, these men from the "white listed" units, were released to go home (another thing uncle joe hated) That kill crazy sod, wanted to execute 500,000 German Officers. That was a completely insane thing.

For Mart: They undoubtedly would have retained their uniforms untill others could be attained to replace their old ones. You are right, they would be issued American and British issue uniforms. Definately NOT a silly question. In many cases, POWs sent to England and to here in the USA, were issued our uniforms to replace theirs, and marked with a giant white "P", on the backs of their shirts and a small "p" with a white stripe down the sides of their trousers. Im not sure how they were marked if they were in English POW camps.

Im sure that the Russians did know SOMETHING about the A-Bomb, through their "friendly spy, Lucy". Im sure the suspected that we did have SOMETHING they did not.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Germans and Japanese soldiers were only used to combat the enemy where no other suitable units existed. Every example of Germans and Japanese soldiers working for the Allies that can be pointed out, ends with Allied troops replacing them ASAP.
Its really not a military, but political issue to put guns in German hands. No Allied politician would do this except in cases they had a damn good explaination for. Which they didnt in the case of a Russian attack because of the time it would take to organize these units. Remember its May 5 1945, 99.9% of German units are in captivity clothed only holed uniforms and castoffs. The US would be forced to:
1. ID everyone of these guys
2. Then cull acceptable soldiers
3. Move them to US Army Education centers
4. Spend weeks sorting these men out while giving basic English lessons and the like.
5. Form actual units
6. Equip these units
7. Allow for acclamation to US command structure and weapons.
8. A quiet piece of the front so you can see if this unit works or not

This would take at a minimum 6 months to form even a small core of German units palatable to US political thought, 1 year to form any sort of army. (It took until '48 to do this in history, I dont see them able to speed it up that much)

Ever army allowed units of armed troops to police conquered countries. I can email you pics of Belgian, French, and other police(under SS control)in Nazi occupied countries. In France these units were made up of French soldiers who had belonged to, or had expressed some interest in the French Nazi party(their "white" units) and were issued with small arms and armored cars(with all AT guns removed, MG's only. This was repeated by the US, UK, and every other country. This was standard practice in WWI and earlier.
Later many of these French police were organized into Waffen SS units, filling 2 divisions. This happened later in the war when warm bodies were hard to come by for the Germans.

__________________
It's a sick, sick world. I'm a happy man.

Hello Tallyrand.

You are 100% correct about some German and Japanese troops being used as police and guards etc. I too have actual photos showing them in that roll but I have no way of sending scans or posting them here. I also have at least one photo showing armed Polish soldiers guarding something for the Germans and they are dressed in their Polish uniforms.

As for politics having the sole say-so in whether these men would be used in any role had already been an issue. General George C. Marshall and General Dwight David Eisenhauer, used them on their own initative ignoring some of the political leaders assinine wishes. These Generals ran and won the war, not the politicians.

The politicos were totally against these men being used but they HAD to be used as there was a lack of the proper allied soldiers to "fill in the gaps".

True most were only used for a relative short period of time but, many were used into late '45 or even early 46.

I know someone who has a few Fallschirmjager Feldjager photos. One photo sticks out in my mind to this day. This photo shows 3 or 4 Fallschirmjager Feldjagers who had stopped a jeep with 2 US soldiers in it. This was after the war had ended. These Fallschirm were armed with the FG-42 automatic rifles and a P-08 as a sidearm.

The man who sticks most in my mind is the Fallschirm Feldwebel, with the classic "constipated" look that all policemen the world round have when questioning someone and listening to their excuses.

By the way, if a copy of this photo is wanted, you can order it from the Biblio Verlag which is in either Berlin or Potsdam, I dont remember which.

Its also well documented theat Oberleutnant Heinz Heuer and his Gendarm Trupp, were used appz 2 months after the end of the war. These men were also released shortly afterwards to go home. Many of these men became regular Polizei and had successful careers.

By May 5th 1945, there were more than just .1% of Germans still fighting. The gereral surrender came on May 8th, 1945. The men were still fighting in Czecholslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Brest (which held out till the very end of the war) Kurland forces, and some I think in Norway or somewhere like that. A good source for this kind of info can be read in James Lucas book: Kommando, and one titled "The Last Days of the Reich" I believe? You can get some of this Gendarm info from the 2 volumes of Chained Dago, which is by Heinz Heuer and his son, who also is a German policeman.

In reply to your numbered points.

1)True they would have to ID, these men, but had already ID'ed all the other POWs and these men were already at camps that fit men of certain catagories. For instance, Diehard nazis fanatics were separated from the non political Germans Soldiers already. Then you had a "middle of the fence" groups. These are the ones who were waiting to see how the war was going to end before making their true intentions known.

These men were well rested and had better uniforms that the men who surrendered up to May 16th 1945. They for the most part, were much better fed and healthy, that their newly captured counterparts were. These men could be trained rather quickly, but would need new training.

2) The allies would already know who they could use immediately. There really was a program in which a branch of the US Armys Intelligence section, that had already done this and was still doing so as fresh German POWs came in. A movie was even made about it.

3)The movement of these men could be rather simple and not long in the taking, as they were in England, Germany, France, and Austria already. Now the ones from Canada and the United States, would take much time.

4)Why would they need Engllish lessons? Most Germans DO know English, and many were forced into taking it in School as kids, or either opted to do so. I know this as fact, as I am friends with many many Germans, and many of those are WW2 German vets. Many of them have long since thanked the good lord that their parents made them learn English.

They would not have a hard time in finding English speaking Germans, so this step could be skipped.

5) Formation of actual units, would also be rather simple because the units for the most part, were actually kept together in captivity. The Western allies did not do as what the Russians did, or at least in most of the cases.

6)Equipping these units could also be simply done by using captured arms and materials. True, having all the necessary vehicles would be another thing, but could be done as that what lend lease supplise that would be going to the Russians, and stopped, would be detoured to the Germans and Western Allies, had the Russians started a fight with us.

7)Our structure really isnt much different than the Germans structure was. We originally built our military structures from what we learned from the Germans, the British and the French. Uniform styles were influenced by European styles for the most part.

8)That wold be possible to test these units at quiet fronts, but most likely not be necessary, as Mil Intel already knew which units could be trusted and how they fought simply because they fought against these very units.

I have to disagree with the 6 month deal, because there were still plenty Germans who were more than ready to continue the fight against the Russians. These men could be rested awhile and at that time re-equipped and sent back into combat. Supplies would be quicker to obtain from France, Italy, England etc.

I also have to disagree with the last few lines in your last paragraph.

There were no two French Waffen SS Divisions. There was only one listed as a Division and only on paper as was the case with most of the Eurpoean SS and Volunteer units.

The French SS Division was named "Charlemagne" and at best was only Regimental in size up to maybe a Brigade, but I only know it as a Regimeental size unit.

This unit had been destroyed at least twice, while fighting in Russia, and in the west, and the few men who made it to Berlin in the last days (appx 90 men) most of those were killed in the fighting and or executed afterwards. Look into the book: "Ths Last Days of Berlin" and it will give you an excellent picture of what happened. Also read: "The Fall of Berlin" and then there is another and much older book I highly recommend and I think its called: "The last 10 Days of Berlin" or something like that. This book is by Corneilous Ryan (spelling?) the auther who wrote: "A Bridge Too Far". In his book, ha has many many interviewes with the actual participants who fought and or commanded forces in that magnificant battle.

He has interviews with many German Generals like: Gotthard Heinrici, and many many others including Russians and Civilians who were there.

I hope you will excuse my being in excess of my reply. Just consider it another of my "Mad Moments" [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.