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What If? Alternate History: Speculate about WWII battles that never were. Could the Axis have won? What if Hitler had the bomb?

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old March 17th, 2008, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Brazil with Axis

Damned great post Pzjgr !!!!
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old March 18th, 2008, 01:59 AM
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Default Re: Brazil with Axis

Agreed!
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Old March 18th, 2008, 03:30 AM
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Default Re: Brazil with Axis

Thank you sirs. Once in awhile I get the smart burp.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old March 18th, 2008, 11:57 AM
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Default Re: Brazil with Axis

Yes, I agree. That was a very informative post. We do learn something new everyday.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old March 18th, 2008, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Brazil with Axis

Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I doubt that the US would have readily allowed any state of South America to unilaterally enter WW 2 on the side of Germany without severe reprecussions, and even possibly invasion. If you look at the political patterns early in the war this is clear.
Starting with the Declaration of Panama on Oct 3, 1939, about a month into the war at the first meeting of the Foreign Ministers of the American Republics where a "Hemispheric Safety Belt" of 300 to 1000 miles wide was declared from Canada to the southern tip of South America as an exclusion area to all belegerents. This excluded all combatants from this area for war purposes. Of course, all of the combatants also ignored it.
When the Low Countries and France fell the US further flat out told Germany that under the Monroe Doctrine that they would not allow an Axis occupation of any Dutch, French, or Danish territory in the Americas by a Senate resoultion passed on 6/17/40. Two days later a the second meeting of Foreign Ministers of the American Republic at Havana the Act of Havana was unanimously approved establishing a "collective trusteeship" of colonial territories threatened by "Nazi occupation."
Two months later on August 18, the US entered an agreement with Canada setting up the Permanent Joint Board of Defense to study "the north half of the Western Hemisphere" defense problems. At the same time Congress was authorizing almost $50 billion in new defense spending and calling for a "50,000 plane air force."

Its pretty clear that right from the start of the war that the US had absolutely no intention of letting Germany get so much as a foothold anywhere in the Americas. Had Germany gotten one or another nation to throw in with them in South America it would have been to that nation's great disadvantage. Given the political and economic realities of the Americas it is hard to see how any nation, however sympathic they might be to the German cause, would have been willing in the existing atmosphere to actually openly side with Germany.
In March 1942 the USN conducted a corps size amhibious landing exercise. The 1st Marine & 9th Army divsions participated. It been claimed the exercise was organized as if it were aimed at the NE Brazilian Coast, with the objective of capturing hostile airfields along the coast. The Carolinas coast was susposedly chosen for a resemblance to the area of interest in Brazil. Adm King who took a close interest in this exercise firmly belived the installation of German reconissance aircraft and airbourne battalions for airfield security were a distinct possiblity on the NE coast of Brazil.
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Old March 19th, 2008, 07:07 AM
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Default Re: Brazil with Axis

Quote:
Originally Posted by De Vlaamse Leeuw View Post

Can anyone tell me if Mexico was pro Germany???
As said earlier in this post about a few years ago, it was not.
Still, this gives me an opportunity to show how Mexico historically reacted to the Nazi attempt at subversion.

News report from June 24, 1940 (Time Mag)

Hitler's sweep through France did more to make Mexico see eye to eye with Washington than years of diplomatic talk. Last week as Nazis goose-stepped in Paris, the Mexican Govt. informed Hitler's slick director of Nazi intrigue, Arthur Dietrich, that he was no longer persona grata in Mexicco, that his activities , pursued with arrogant disregard for the laws and privileges of his host country, were "prejudicial to Mexican interests." An investigation of Dietrich had revealed that his office served as a relay point for instructions from Berlin to Nazi agents in the US, as well as elsewhere in the Americas, including plenty of boring from within in Mexico.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2008, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Brazil with Axis

Mexican commitment to the Allied cause rather than the Axis powers, had its origins in internal Mexican politics. In the late 1930's, President Lazaro Cardenas had declared Mexican neutrality, but even before the 1940 presidential election campaign between conservative candidate Juan Almazan and P.R.I. designate Avila Camacho, tensions between pro-fascist and pro-communist groups that had simmered since the middle 1930's began to erupt into violence.

Alarmed by the possibilities of an unstable pro-fascist or pro-communist government below the Rio Grande, the U.S. began to offer both overt and clandestine aid to the established government. A financial crisis in Mexico had brought some economic co-operation as the U.S. Government had come to the aid of the Cardenas regime by purchasing silver and granting U.S. government backed loans. Attempting to solve the economic problems, in 1938 the Cardenas-led government had nationalized the Mexican oil industry.

They were still being wooed by both by Germany and Fascist Spain. Large Italian minorities also exerted pressure on the government. The treaty between Stalin and Hitler had cooled the anti-fascist fervor of the Mexican Communist Party and had indeed made some of them pro-German. Thus the Mexican Government was caught between its own left and right wing partisans and was frozen into inaction.


Now, a miscalculation by Germany provided the impetus to break the stalemate. Numerous submarine attacks on Mexican ships, coupled with a massive propaganda campaign launched by the U.S., British and French began to turn the tide of public opinion. Although not an attack on Mexican territory, the sinking of the Mexican tanker Faja de Oro by the German U-boat, U-160, on May 21, 1942 off Key West, prompted the entry of Mexico into World War II. Mexico and Brazil were the only Latin American countries to send troops to fight overseas against Germany and Japan.

Only the already modernized Mexican Air Force was to actually engage in combat. Mexican pilots received additional training in the United States and in 1945 fought valiantly in the air war in the Phillipines. Only one squadron, Number 201, actually saw combat. Nicknamed "The Aztec Eagles," they flew P-47 Thunderbolt fighters and offered close ground support for U.S. and Philipino ground forces as they struggled to liberate the islands from the Japanese. Decorated by the United States, Mexico and the Phillipines, its 31 pilots and approximately 150 ground support personnel were the only Mexican military force to serve outside of Mexico. Of the squadron's 31 pilots, 5 were killed in action.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old March 20th, 2008, 03:45 AM
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Default Re: Brazil with Axis

Thank you, PzJgr for the information on both the Brazilian and Mexican forces active participation on the Allied side. I was ignorant of both until your posts. I appreciate learning about this.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old March 22nd, 2008, 01:23 PM
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Default Re: Brazil with Axis

Quote:
Originally Posted by PzJgr View Post
After the Brazilians and troops of U.S. 10th Mountain Division took those positions on Apennines from February 18 to March 5, 1945 the German mass retreat had became unavoidable with the Spring offensive in April. Bologna was entered on 21 April by the Polish 3rd Carpathian Rifle Division from Eighth Army and U.S. 34th Infantry Division from Fifth Army, on 25 a General partisan insurrection by the Italian resistance movement started at the same time as Brazilians arrive at Parma and Americans at Modena and Genova, Forces of British VIII Army advanced toward to Venice and Trieste. After that, the main concern of the Allied forces in Italy was pursuing the enemy.
Those positions culminated in a strongly fortified hill called Monte Castello. It was conquered on Feb 21th. The capture of Monte Castello is celebrated every year here in Brazil.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old March 26th, 2008, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Brazil with Axis

I remember reading, perhaps in The Proceedings of the Naval Institute or Naval History that prior to Brazil alowing the US to build airbases the US had an active plan for invading Brazil.
I can't get to their search page right now but you might try at:
Search the Archives - U.S. Naval Institute
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