What if Brazil had entered to WW2 with Axis and its airbase at Natal could be used by those countries. What could be happen?

More of a shot with Argentina.

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If this would happen a major supplyroute from the US to Africa ,Middle East and onwards to China couldn't have existed. I read the book of Eve Curie and it looked like a very busy supplyroute for Allied fighters, bombers and people.

Popski

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Four million German citizens lived and made work in Brazil by 1939 alone. Almost all of these were ethnic Germans. Brazil's total population was similarly bolstered by the presence of millions of Dutch and Italian settlers.

Fascist parties tended to be active in the South American regions, where socialists and communists were often repressed by the state with such regularity that it would later put American efforts to shame by comparison.

As early as 1936, Chile's government was siezed by fascists following a militant dictatorship. Fascist politics motivated the Argentines nearly into the Axis arms.

Assuming the Germans attained a Brazilian ally - and it would be Berlin, not Rome which levied most of the strength here, then Hitler might have been more enthused to conquer - with four armored, three motorized, and a dozen infantry divisions - all of French North Afica. From bases in Florianopolis and on the French Ivory Coast, Argentine beef and oil would not reach the British.

America would have turned to Argentina, not Brazil, and made of them a regional power. Already in 1936, Argentina was the world's sixth-most-powerful nation economically, but Brazil's 55 million far outweighed their 12 or so million. It's up in the air as to who wins, but I believe America - in time - could have overcome. And supplied the British.

If brazil joined the axia, they would be within range to bomb th panama canal. Plus the germans would have bases to refuel their u boats in the south pacific. Also if Brazil joined I think a few other south american nations mited of followed their lead and joined the axis.

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Hi Celo, welcome aboard and I will answer you question later today.

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I have to agree with PzGdr on the Panama Canal, only that I thing the Axis would have tried to capture it for their own usage instead of bombing it.

I do agree that a few other South American countries would have also joined the Axis. Portugal and Peru and possible Chile.

I forgot to add Argentina--Jeeeeze.


[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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I think you are right about other South American countries joining along with Brazil. But how would tyhe Americans have reacted. Surley they wouldnot have just sat back and let it happen. And Chris, without trying to embarrass any one, Portugal is not in South America



[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Bish ]

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The USA would have had to divert needed forces to have a Southern Command and Operational Area. Which forces and weapone one could only guess. The USA had at least 14 actual fleets of ships, the 15th saw only a "paper" fleet (Admiral Kings staff).

They would have to have enough Inf, and Armored Divs earmarked for fighting down there, and we probably would have asked for help from the Canadians and Australians bceause I think the British were already stretched a bit thin as it were. We might have even had Indian units there as well as they were excellent jungle fighters.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

One must remember the correlation not only of forces and governments in the area of the southern hemisphere, but also the division in investments.

Chilé: Although beset by a series of rather inefficient junta governments before fascist coups installed a coalition government led by socialists and communists, Chile already seemed a likely ally of Reich in many eyes. Prior to the Great War - when the British presence at Concepcion and in Antofagasta generally played Santiago's hand, Germany had held signifigant stock - and indeed a monopoly - in or over Chilean nitrates and copper interests. Hardest by all nations during the Depression, however, American investment and corporate loans were a major factor for stabilization. Besides Chilean government predisposed to fear its very own population, few supported conflict of any sort, let alone with Argentina or the US. Chile's fascists, although repressed as brutally as those in Rumania, were far less potent.

Argentina: A British thrall, yet the nation ranking 6th among the world's GDP ratings, Argentina held considerable numbers - among the millions - of Italian and German ethnic enclaves. This among a nation whose twelve million people were mostly give to British persuasion. Had the Argentines now had the English monopoly of beef and wheat, their economy would have foundered. Because the German U-Boats had a hand in this, war was only narrowly diverted. The Argentine govt. and not the Argentine people wanted a war on the German side.

Uraguay: A nation with only a few million people, signifigant numbers were German or Italian. This to the point that Hitler had theorized later invasion of South America via Montevideo, and later, the Argentine lowlands. Yet Montevideo was firmly in the sway of Argentina.

The United States could have handled any and all eventualities in the region save perhaps the Argentine favoritism of Germany among government circles - which might have taken a year to dissolve via blockades or naval confrentation. There could only have been similar cirumstances when Brazil is taken into account.

The Brazilian alliance with the Axis could really have happened because the president Getúlio Vargas was a fascist sympathizer, he was a dictator. As you all said, really was in Brazil a lot of people from Italy and Germany.

But USA help to build the first steel mill in Brazil, the CSN (Companhia Siderúrgica Nacional), this, and another reasons of pressure cause the entered at the Allied side.

I think that Brazil had entered at the Axis side, it could depend of the year to bring a war to the South American Theater, because Brazil declared war against Germany, reluctantly, but in 1942. The geographical position of Brazil in relation to Africa and even to USA, could be a problem to Allies. But I don´t know if Germany, Italy or even Japan could effectively be a real problem to Allies in 1942 here in South America at that time, because of relation of the other countries with the Allies.

If, at the beggining of the war, I think that history could be really different.
Maybe the history of beggining of the USA participation in WW2 was different, not in a Pearl Harbor atack, but in another South American target.

[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: Rodrigo ]

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If Brazil would have joined the Axis, so would Paraguay, Argentina, Uruguay.

Hitler would have suggested to attack towards the Panama-channel. Maybe they would have done it. So America wouldn't have send troops to Europe and also no Lend-and-Lease.

Can anyone tell me if Mexico was pro Germany???

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NO! It wasn't!

Do you think it's easy to live with the yanks (or gringos , as the Mexican say) over you? No, it isn't.

Living here, I have realised that in the 1940s, Mexico was recovering from the horrendous first 20 years of the century, civil war, famine, etc. The Mexican politicias (supossely democratic) obviously were not going to defy their Northern neighbour just for vague promises that Berlin could make... Even if the USA was not very happy with the Mexican government (the petrol industry had just been nationalised, taken away from foreigners in 1938) they would need Mexico for the incoming war: the petrol, the natural resources and the man power.

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Albert, I don't know about the Mexicans, but I know that here at Brazil, the dictatorial government of Getúlio Vargas, was a very sympathizer with Nazi Germany in early 30's.

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I would feel very sorry for Brazil. For a start there would have been plenty of scope for the allies to stir up internal dissent in South America: after all they were usually pretty good at doing that without help! Second, isolated from Germany and Italy by allied sea control Brazil is on her own, and Argentina could have been brought in by the allies against her with territorial promises postwar. A blockade goes without question. Econoimic problems would soon lead to unrest with the army concentrating on keeping the populace down rather than fighting.

Jumbo

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Agree with Jumbo on this one!

We would not have been able to help anybody away from Europe...

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"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

It would have been very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, (breath) very, very, very, very hard for the U.S.A. to fight a war on THREE sides.

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Not really. I think that WWII didn't see USA's TOTAL display of its force. Being such a large and industrialised nation it could have mobilise some 200 divisions, just like the USSR... And there were resorces, men and industry enough to provide even more ships and aeroplanes...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

It has been asked how the US could fight on 3 sides. I think the better question would be, "how could the Axis supply Brazil if it had joined them"?

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That's a nice question. It probably would've delayed production of the Me.262, and all other aeroplanes. It would've made them with even less influence after the war. If they had won the war they would'nt have been able to build off their conquered land. The Third Reich wouldn't have lasted 1,000 years that's for sure!!!

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Why couldn't even supply our own forces in Germany, how could we have supplied Brzil with weaponry if it is thousands of miles away, with a huge Ocean and the RN in the middle?

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Sharing documents how to make tanks, planes.

Germany could send a few engineers by sub to Brasil to learn the Brasilian engineers how to built tanks and planes.

If ... of course!!!!

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Sorry to bring this up six years since the last reply, but don't forget that Brazil already produced german airplanes, such as Focke-Wulf Fw 44 and Fw 58, under license before the war.

Brazil was a self-suficient country on food and had plenty of natural resources such as rubber and iron. Of course, joining the Axis in 1941 or so was a complete madness, but if Germany had sent engineers and military instructors during late 30's, the thing could be very different.

U-Boats would be able to operate from southern atlantic since the beginning, and the war vessels such as Graf Spee would have safe haven in Rio de Janeiro or Florianópolis. Later on, same situation for Bismarck and Tirpitz.

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I doubt that the US would have readily allowed any state of South America to unilaterally enter WW 2 on the side of Germany without severe reprecussions, and even possibly invasion. If you look at the political patterns early in the war this is clear.
Starting with the Declaration of Panama on Oct 3, 1939, about a month into the war at the first meeting of the Foreign Ministers of the American Republics where a "Hemispheric Safety Belt" of 300 to 1000 miles wide was declared from Canada to the southern tip of South America as an exclusion area to all belegerents. This excluded all combatants from this area for war purposes. Of course, all of the combatants also ignored it.
When the Low Countries and France fell the US further flat out told Germany that under the Monroe Doctrine that they would not allow an Axis occupation of any Dutch, French, or Danish territory in the Americas by a Senate resoultion passed on 6/17/40. Two days later a the second meeting of Foreign Ministers of the American Republic at Havana the Act of Havana was unanimously approved establishing a "collective trusteeship" of colonial territories threatened by "Nazi occupation."
Two months later on August 18, the US entered an agreement with Canada setting up the Permanent Joint Board of Defense to study "the north half of the Western Hemisphere" defense problems. At the same time Congress was authorizing almost $50 billion in new defense spending and calling for a "50,000 plane air force."

Its pretty clear that right from the start of the war that the US had absolutely no intention of letting Germany get so much as a foothold anywhere in the Americas. Had Germany gotten one or another nation to throw in with them in South America it would have been to that nation's great disadvantage. Given the political and economic realities of the Americas it is hard to see how any nation, however sympathic they might be to the German cause, would have been willing in the existing atmosphere to actually openly side with Germany.

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