There were two decisive points: One, destroying the RAF and two, crossing the Channel. I can't say which of them is more difficult or the one which would have taken more time. But if it could have been achieved, the British had not a chance... Fighting the Wehrmacht of 1940 with the bad equipped British troops of 1940? Yeah...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Friedrich

How will this superior Wehrmacht be kept supplied? Sea control of the Channel is vital, and there is no way on god's earth that Germany could have wrested it from Britain and retained it long enough to support a cross-channel campaign: think of the fuel requirements alone. Secondly, were were not as badly equipped as you imply: by mid-September the situation had considerably improved.

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Don't come at us with the "excellent supply" situation of the British army, we've been through all that before (twice or thrice actually [img]smile.gif[/img] ), but I do agree with you now.

The Wehrmacht had a very slim chance of actually winning. But this chance was so slim as to be negligable. The Heer would have won easily once across and supplied, but could it be supplied? I guess not. Miracles would have been needed, and miracles continuously happen in war, but they can't be counted on for a what-if.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

Who mentioned excellent? All I said was that it had considerably improved on the situation immediatley after Dunkirk. More than enough to deal with the German units the Kriegsmarine would have been capable of putting ashore and sustaining.

To successfully invade would have needed the whole of the German war machine being turned around, with greater emphasis on Naval building, strategic air capability (a nice 4-engined bomber) and a tighter blockade on Britain. Germany could have successfully invaded Britain in Spring 1942 if it had decided to leave Russia alone. It was really one choice or the other: in the end Hitler got neither.

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Well, I can see your points. Maybe you're right.

What about mid-1942 or spring 1943 with a smashed USSR and without the US in the war? OK. Friedrich might seem drunk again, but he's not.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Jumbo; sorry about responding so late; i was out of town. I totally agree about the impossibility of winning a war with air power alone. I meant defeating the RAF was key to defeating Britain, because without the RAF, bombing and naval campaigns could be persued with much greater ease.

Friedrich; Assuming Germany beats the USSR, then there is no need to invade Britain, as she would pose zero threat. Not even the USA would be able to successfuly invade Europe. Of course, if Hitler felt like attacking England for kicks, then the combined industrial might of all of Europe would surely be enough to conquer Britain by a few years after the USSR surrenders. (By the way, is that whiskey on your breath?!? )

[ 16 September 2002, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: dasreich ]

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

Friedrich

I don't think that Germany could have chosen both. Defeating Britain would mean creating some sort of expeditionary strategy and the forces to support it: resources which would be unavailable if the Germans got sucked into a campaign against Russia.
DasReich is correct in saying that if Russia collapsed invading Britain would be an irrelevance, just strangle her with U-Boats. After all AH was convinced that Britain would throw in the towel if the USSR fell.

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

I liked this bit....

The Engineer Battalion 47 of VII Army Corps was designated as having responsibility for the "construction of seaworthy ferries out of auxiliary equipment, local supply and bridging equipment". What was unusual in this was that this task, requiring a good knowledge of matters maritime, was tasked to this particular battalion, which had its home base in Bavaria.

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Well, after all this posts on the battle of Britain I am starting to find it very unprobable that we could have defeated England by invading it. If invaded, then it meant defeat. But as you all guys say, an invasion was far beyond the German capabilities at the moment.

I think that Hitler wrongly bet all his money on Göring, when the thing to do if he wanted to defeat Great Britain was beting all his money on Dönitz.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Here comes the Luftwaffe's last '109 with Friedrich at the controls.....

'Get my Spitfire ready !!' [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I'd only bet on Goring if it was an eating competition...

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Or dropping barbs by the handful ! Hmmmmm I wonder why the Luftwafe pilots always called him "Fatty" during mid 44 onward...... ?

E

OK, Martin! But I will not make you happy by giving you the opportunity of shooting me down!

It is rather plausible that Friedrich crashes his 109 some seconds after he takes off (and that is if he can take off!!!)

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

More weird stuff from Otto Skorzeny´s book:

On his famous speech on 4th June 1940, Curchill said:

"..we will fight on the beaches, at the landing sites, we will fight on the land and in the streets!"

The Deacon of Canterbury later stated that the speaker placed a hand over the microphone at the moment and added " and we will throw beer glasses in their faces, for that is in fact all we have."

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Notes from Skorzeny´s book on Canaris:

On July 7 1940 Canaris gave Keitel confidential information which stated that the Germans would meet about twenty first-line divisions in an eventual landing in England, with another nineteen in reserve. However, in his memoirs Montgomery stated that at this time there was only one adequately armed and equipped division available, namely the 3rd under the command of Monty himself.

The false information by Canaris explains the demands made by Generalfeldmarschall von Brauchitsch, whom Hitler entrusted with the overall command of the landing forces: he wanted to land on a wide front with 41 divisions, six of these panzer divisions and three motorized. Grossadmiral Raeder naturally answered with a non possumus; he didn´t have enough ships to cover the landing at sea and furthermore demanded total air superiority on the part of Luftwaffe.

Churchill gave following "confession" to the officers of the Home Guard on May 12 1940:

"After the fall of France we were not only a people without an army, but also a people without arms. If the enemy had fallen from the sky or landed in various parts of the country, he would have found only a handful of poorly-armed men guarding searchlight positions."

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For myself the invasion of England with the knowledge given in this section seems impossible even with total control of air space by Luftwaffe. The channel currents and the Royal Navy to handle..
Anyway, these are facts that I find enjoyable to bring up," spicing the food " I like to think.

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May 12 1940 must be wrong, this is long before France fell.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

Indeed, you´re right Andreas. I checked the book and May it is and 1940 as well. Must be a mistake and passed through me as well.
No referrence so cannot tell the exact time, but later than mentioned here anyway.
Thanx!

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For those interested, there is a show on tomorrow on History Television (for the Canadians here), called "When Hitler Invaded Britain" - Tomorrow at 7:30. I have seen it before, and look forward to seeing it again tomorrow.

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Visit my website: WWII.ca

Not sure if this has already been posted, but are you aware of the 1974 wargame played at the Staff College, Sandhurst. The wargame was based on the known plans of each side, plus previously unpublished Admiralty weather records for September 1940. Each side (played by British and German officers respectively) was based in a command room, and the actual moves plotted on a scale model of SE England constructed at the School of Infantry. The panel of umpires included Adolf Galland, Admiral Friedrich Ruge, Air Chief Marshal Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris, Rear Admiral Edward Gueritz, General Heinz Trettner and Major General Glyn Gilbert.

Even without air supremacy the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England using a minefield screen in the English Channel to protect the initial landings from the Royal Navy. However, after a few days, the Royal Navy was able to cut off supplies from the German beachhead, isolating them and forcing their surrender.


The results were used in a book, 'Sealion' by Richard Cox

[ 25. October 2005, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: pillboxesuk ]

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“This is a tale you will tell your grandchildren, and mightily bored they’ll be.” Lt. Gen. Brian Horrocks commander of British XXX Corps September 16, 1944 prior to Operation Market.

You might also be interested in seeing what remains today of the defences that were built.

British World War 2 Invasion Defences

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“This is a tale you will tell your grandchildren, and mightily bored they’ll be.” Lt. Gen. Brian Horrocks commander of British XXX Corps September 16, 1944 prior to Operation Market.

I was wondering if Italy had been successful in North Africa, would their naval power (now free to roam the mediterran) helped Germany achieve what many people though was impossible ?

Italy does have a good ship building capability.

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The Two World Wars

Without any airbases close by, Malta could have been taken with a blockade if the Brits didn't abandon it beforehand. It would have been an Italian lake but the British could still carry the fight from Egypt and the Yanks from Morocco.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Plans to invade England could have been realized at the expense of many German soldiers lost due to inadequate logistical support. This result could have been achieved in the later half of 1940. These plans if executed would have precluded the invasion of Russia. The end result would have been Germany greatly depleted in resources in all military areas and in similar conditions that England found itself after Dunkirk.

What would have happened next? </font>

• Stagnation of German military ambitions in Europe?</font>
• Russian invasion due to weakened German forces?</font>
• Peace proposal from England while they hold the threat of some military superiority?</font>
• Change in the axis of advance of German advance to Africa since too weak to attack Russia?</font>

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL