Greetings Gentlemen. My topic of discussion deals in the realm of what if? It is my contention that if General MacArthur had followed the guidelines of War Plan Orange in terms of the prosecution of a war with Japan in the Phillipines and fallen back into the peninsula of Bataan, at the outset of the campaign, taking adequate stocks of food, weapons, fuel and medicine with him, rather than pursuing an aggressive, offensive strategy, the war in the Phillipines could have continued well into 1942, or perhaps even beyond. Remember,he had 108 M-3 Stuart tanks, with accompanying 75mm gun-carrying half tracks and commandeered Bren gun carriers. He posessed a respectable amount of artillery, (75,105 and 155mm guns) and even after the debacle at Clark Field, he still had a fairly large airforce at his command. At the time of his retreat into Bataan, he abandoned millions of tons of foodstuffs, millions of gallons of fuel and untold amounts of warehoused goods that would have been better served in the hands of Fillipino-American Forces. Your ideas Gentlemen?

First of all welcome aboard and great posting.

MacArthur in my opinion, would have stopped the Japanese forces had he followed directives instead of himself. The Japanese forces were not near as strong or well equipped as ours were.

The Phillipine soldiers were excellent soldiers, almost in some cases as good as Ghurkas. I cannot see the Japanese capturing the whole of the Phillipines. Sure enough, all the Japanese had in armor, if any at this stage of the war, had only 2 man light tanks. The Stuarts and grant swould have easily handled those and the halftracks could have been used as mobile artillery.

I think Mac, totally messed up and should have been reprimended somehow. USMC, Gunnery Sergeant McCormack/MacCormack didnt like ol mac. This man im talking about was the last American soldier to either surrender ot be captured on Bataan. I had met him about 16 years ago, and sadly he passed away shortly after I first met him.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Welcome aboard.
I don't have anything to say about the topic since I haven't the slightest clue of the pacific theater of war.

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"Front leaning rest position"
"Move"
"In cadence, exercise....1, 2, 3" (My favorite thing to hear at 5 in the morning.)

The CBI Theatre USED to be what I was interested in until about 12 years ago, then I graduated to the ETO and Eastern Front

Now its so unusual for me to talk about the Japanese instead of the Germans, that when I do, my throat starts to sieze up and get sore

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Thanks for the kind words guys. I believe that MacArthur, firmly entrenched in prepared positions on the Batann penninsula with ample supplies of food, ammunition, medicine and fuel could have held out well into 1942. From what I have read, it seems as if it was starvation and disease that defeated the Fillippino-American forces in the Phillipines. The Japanese played an important, but not deceisive role in that campaign. Had MacArthur held out after the battles at Coral Sea, Midway, or even, Guadalcanal, I wonder how U.S prosecution of the war would have changed.

Maybe, had MacArthur brought more food and supplies he would have extended the US possession of the philippines, i think it was not possible for him to hold out long enough to recieve reinfocements...for that no doubt would not have happened adequetly till 44. And for an army to sit in a defensive posture about 2 years without resupply and an airforce or effective naval force (for surely by the end their airforce would be gone) against an enemy with more than ample supplies, who controls the sky and sea...whose troops would have better moral, would no doubt have eventually collapsed.
yes we had good troops but Japanese troops were no sticks in the mud...armor was not that that huge a factor in pacific conflicts...not like in europe...In my opinion had macArthur followed war plan orange...yes the battle would have been extended...but not long enough to be "liberated" so to speak when US lines finally made it there...The philippines would still have fallen.

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Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events. -- Sir Winston Churchill

I think the defenders of Bataan DID hold out until well into 1942. Bataan was not surrendered until April 9th of that year. Corregidor held out even longer. MacArthur did not leave until March, 1942. A better supply situation would have added a month or two to the timetable. Those supplies had been abandoned in the shilly-shallying decision to meet the Japanese at the beaches and then the shuffle back to Bataan. Most of the anti-aircraft and artillery shells would have been just as corroded and faulty however. A lot of the supplies that DID get back to Bataan were unusable.

If I remember correctly, Corrigador held out about a month after MacArthur was ordered to leave.

I hate the criteria on why Mac recieved his Medal of Honor--but do agree with why it happened. He was awarded the CMH not because of valor or his leadership--but basically because it was for the morale of the civilians back home where Dugout Dougie was popular.

He actually blocked General Wainwrights MoH that General Marshall was going to approve. At least shortly after the war--at least Wainwright did get his CMH--he definately deserved his much more then big mac did.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

yeah, i never did like McArthur. He had his strong points but eh...he was constantly after greatness. Then when i heard the story about him and wainwright, it made me dislike him even more. He TOTALY did not deserve his MoH...wainright did. In fact of all the stories i read in my medal of honor book...McArthurs was the least impressive...i mean he hardly did anything special?!! he just wanted all the credit.

Ron, I totally agree with you. Ol Mac least deserved that Medal. Johnathan M. Wainwright fully deserved his CMH. He not only fought the Japs first hand, but was responsible for attacking Jap MG nests that had been set up on a trail that he happened to be on and going to one of the frontline positions he frequently visited.

As for Dougout Dougie, he only visited the frontlines one time--totally inexcusable.

Mac was brave in ww1, and definately earns some respect, but I dislike him even more for what he did to J.M. Wainwright. Im glad Gen G.C.Marshall one-upped this creep and decided to give one to him anyway.

Used to, I liked Mac alot--till I learned more and more truth. Now I totally understand his motives and who so many vets hate his guts.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Hi guys! Thanks for all the postings. My personal belief is that, had MacArthur brought sufficient supplies of food, medicine, fuel and ammunition into Batann with him, the war in the Phillipines would have continued well into 1942, or even into 43. When you read the accounts of the survivors of the campaign, you very soon see that it was starvation, disease and lack of support that defeated the Fillipino-American forces in the Phillipines. In small, select areas, where there was ample supplies of food, medicine and supplies, the Fil-Amer. forces defeated the Japanese at every turn. It would have proved quite the dillema for Roosevelt to conduct a war of "Europe First" while the Phillipines withered on the vine. Best wishes guys, John Dudek.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Dudek:
It would have proved quite the dillema for Roosevelt to conduct a war of "Europe First" while the Phillipines withered on the vine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ahhh but is that not what he did anyway? He and Churchill decided upon a europe first while the philippines were withering away. Supplies and men were all being sent or prepared to be sent not to the pacific...but europe...well actually africa i guess. I mean the pacific got it's share but the policy was decide upon while the Philippines were withering away.

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: Ron ]

Not quite. Mac had the 1st 2nd 5th and 6th Marine Divisions handy and several Army divisions like the 80th under Simon Bolivar Buckner (my Uncle served with that Division) plus there are a paratrooper division the 17th? plus many other specialist units like Carlsons Raiders, Merrills Marauders, etc etc.

True the War in the Pacific was asecondary importance, but was not left to wither on the vine. It simply recieved 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 in men and materials--and had most of the Navy and Marines plus the 5th, 10th, or 17th Airforces?? I forget which. But none the less, that war was being fought with almost as much esteem as the E.T.O war was.

Macs problem was he thought he was god, and thought he was the only one who was right so he disobeyed the presidents orders and messed up at the beginning of the war.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
Not quite. Mac had the 1st 2nd 5th and 6th Marine Divisions handy and several Army divisions like the 80th under Simon Bolivar Buckner (my Uncle served with that Division) plus there are a paratrooper division the 17th? plus many other specialist units like Carlsons Raiders, Merrills Marauders, etc etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
macArthur had merrills marauders and Carlson's raiders during the first philippine campaigne? i didn't think they existed yet...or at least not functional yet?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>True the War in the Pacific was asecondary importance, but was not left to wither on the vine. It simply recieved 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 in men and materials--and had most of the Navy and Marines plus the 5th, 10th, or 17th Airforces?? I forget which. But none the less, that war was being fought with almost as much esteem as the E.T.O war was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh yeah i didn't mean it recieved nothing...obviosly it got alot otherwise the Solomon Islands campaign could not have happened.
But the pacific did get less...and in relevence to the convo ..the policy was decided while the philippines withered...plus several of the groups you mentioned didn't become available till the last half of the war when the division of men and material began to become equal. that's true at least regarding the marines.

[ 29 November 2001: Message edited by: Ron ]

Im not sure just when Frank D. Merrill, and the others fought, but they were part of Macs team--was all I was pointing out.

Yes I agree, that the war in the Pacific was a secondary war, but it wasnt as important a fight as was the ETO campaigns were for reasons we do and do not know.
No offence meant my friend

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

none taken! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Many thanks Ron (wink)

Speaking of the Pacific T.O, there will be celebrations here friday December 7th--the 60th annerversary of the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. This is a day I will definately will skip work for....

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

The campaign of Bataan and Corregidor shows what american soldiers, even when they are underfed, underequiped and understrength, are capable of doing. Many people blame Macarther for thier loss, but their fate was in fact sealed on Dec.8 1941 when the Japanese Airforce Wiped out the usfeaf. Then it was roosevelts fault for not resupplying the Phillipines. Imho.

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