The USAF has and is currently using 15,000 pound bombs on the taliban in afghanistan. These are pushed on a pallet out the back of a transport aircraft.

A rod protrudes from the bottom side of the bomb, and on impact--about 6 feet above ground, the rod detonates the bomb on impact-leaving nothing but a 30 or so feet deep crater for the area of about 600 yards.

Now just picture the Luftwaffe--had they had this capability and had it to use at Stalingrad--what do you think the outcome would have been?

Without saying it, I think you know my opinion.

[ 10 November 2001: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Eeeeeekkkks !

Actually Carl the Luftwaffe used a similar weapon that was around a 100 ilbs or so with a foot long plunger rod on the front of the bomb. In this effect like you mentioned the bomb would detonate above the ground and create total havoc amonst ground troops. With great effect the Schlactgeschwaders especially the ones with the Ju 87 D variants on the Ost Front.
In any case if the item you are mentioning or even the daisy cutter, gag !, Stalingrad would of been just one big series of craters. No need for opposite sides to fight to death as nothing would be left to defend. Everything would be obliterated.

E

You know--I think it is the Daisy Cutter, I couldnt think of its name at the time.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Carl, I'm not really sure but maybe it is. After seeing the tele showing the destruction of this monster, well you know what I mean.........nothing left! Thankfully the Taliban doesn't have real sophisticated ground to air missiles still intact.

E

even if the luftwaffe had of had one it would have had nothing to drop it with

Sure? What about a modified Me 323 or a He 111 Z?

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

i think if they were able to deploy it somehow...i don't think they would have been able to produce/drop enough to make an effect on the outcome of battle...i think the only main thing it would have done was lower moral.

[ 12 November 2001: Message edited by: Ron ]

An Me 323 could pull a 15,000 lb bomb aloft, if it took no crew or fuel with it [img]smile.gif[/img] The 323 could carry 34,200 aloft, including fuel and a crew of 4. A full fuel load of 20,000 lbs only gave it a range of 800 miles. Adding the crew and equipment makes it impossible(plus the clamshell doors at the front would tear off if opened during flight)
The He 111 Z never went into production, and the prototype first flew after Stalingrad was over anyways.
Sidenote: A B-29 would have to be heavily modified to carry a single 15,000 bomb.
The Avro B MKI would be your best bet for such a weapon in WWII, but again this aircraft didnt exist while Stalingrad raged.

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the lancaster carried and dropped a 22,ooolb bomb on several occasions

Guys:

Remember that this is only a what if scenario......the Luftwaffe was very capable of carrying a massive load if need be, unfortuantely for them they did not have air superiority after the end of 1943. The He 177 could of carried the bomb(s) as well as a midified Fw 200 and several others. During the daytime would of been suicidal for the above reason.......again this is a what if !



E

To me, the most interesting Luftwaffe 'what-if,' is what if they had followed Galland's advice from the beginning of the Allied bombing campaign?

His point, and a very simple one, is that you have to just forget about bombing until you own the sky. If the sky is contested, you put all your money and men into fighter planes. Unless you own the sky, bombers and transports and anything BUT fighters is a waste of resources.

The 177 and others could carry bombs equaling the weight but to carry a single bomb that big would require major modifications, like the Lancaster dammbusters that Lovat mentioned. The British only built a dozen or something.

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I would have replied to things sooner but, internet was down yesterday

I think Alath has a good idea for a what if? I feel that if Goring and the Luftwaffe higher-ups had listened to Galland, the allies would have had in the least, a much bloodier nose than they did have.

Great thing about this being a What if? is that being like a dream, anything goes and anything could happen--wether its far fetched or not.

Had the Luft had a 15,000 pound bomb and used them at Stalingrad, surely the Germans would have won that great battle and in a decisive manner.

The Russians surely would have withdrawn from the area or have died defending an impossible battlefield.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
Had the Luft had a 15,000 pound bomb and used them at Stalingrad, surely the Germans would have won that great battle and in a decisive manner.

The Russians surely would have withdrawn from the area or have died defending an impossible battlefield.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a what if you can say things but must base them on common sense. Common sense dictates that if the Luftwaffa had the ability to drop such a bomb...and did indead have a bomb of that magnitude....the numbers of bombs and planes would surely not have been big enough to alter a battle of such size. how do you explain how this bomb wins stalingrad? just curious

Tally I would quote you but I cant get it to do so--but I tried.

Anyway, a what if being pure fantasy doesnt HAVE to be totally based on reality kinda like what they say in comicbook language--sort of an alternate reality--or better yet--alternate universe.

True the Luft wouldnt have enough super huge aircraft handy--but a few could have been.

For as close as some German and Russian units were, it would be a bad idea to use this weapon on the front lines.

However, when its dropped on communication and command centers and dugouts--you cut the head eyes and ears off, and the body withers and dies.

Had the Russians had nobody capable to command them such as the General who did, the battle could have been quite different.

For instance, say just one large Luftwaffe aircraft was available for dropping a 15,000 pound bomb, they could still do quite abit of damage.

The German Aircraft flying at say under 10,000 feet, could drop this bomb where there might be an artillery unit or T-34s stationed or better yet, on the factories, would halt the russians from baing able to produce the T-34s and the weapons that they did produce in Stalingrad during the fighting.

This helped make sure that the russians always had the upper hand. A target the size of a factory like the tractor works or red oktober, would have been easy targets. A near miss would still cause plenty of damage and would hamper or halt production and definately would cause casualties.

A direct hit would stop the work and most likely kill or incapacitate in some way--just about all the people working in the factories.

If they were attacking possible armored units or the frontline artillery units--drop the bomb, which would destroy everything in a 600 yard radius. That "aint" no small chunk of area.

I think had they had these available, and had enough to drop a few to several of these daily, I think the russians would get the message and leave the area.

Just imaging this bomb landing on or near an armored units staging area. This one bomb could easily wipe out a battalion of tanks. Of course my estimation of the number of tanks in a battalion are based on the US formation numbers. The russian formations had smaller single units making up larger ones. For instance, a Russian tank brigade or corps--would be the size of a German Panzer Division or possible even the size of a Panzer Brigade or Regiment. ((Read about the battle of Kursk, and you will know what I mean.))

A company of American tanks was usually 15-17. This depended on whether the company CO, rode in a jeep, a command car, or in a tank. A tank Platoon was usually 4 tanks.

You could easily fit a company of shermans on a typical area of a football field--possibly two and 3 companies. One 15,000 pound bomb, would destroy that unit. I dont think that had i been a Russian soldier in a nearby unit ans having seen a tank battalion there one minute and then dissappear the next--I really doubt I would feel like fighting--I would be scared sh*tless.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

What if that bomb was dropped on the landing areas of the Volga on either side of Stalingrad. If they can't get troops across those already there would be quickly wiped off that side of the river.

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Really, what would a heavy bomber do to help the situation in the WINTER of '42/'43? 1 in 5 days? maybe 1 in 7 would be clear enough to bomb. The British needed 800 bombers with sophisticated triangulation harware to bomb an obscured soft target with any shot of damaging it. So on the 12 days they could bomb what could a dozen bombers accomplish?
The major objective of Luftwaffe bombing was to interrupt and destroy Soviet Command and Control. It never worked to a great degree. How would a couple of Daisy Cutters change this overwhelming trend?
What do you call a giant aircraft trundling a 15,000 lb bomb over a target, in daylight, under 10,000 feet? Meat! Even under 10,000 feet targets are near impossible to destinguish. Loss rates of big bombers over Stalingrad would have been horrendous, the Germans would need thousands of them.
The Stalingrad Tractor Works was destroyed several times, having almost its entire work force killed. It always started going again shortly after. Also, it was pretty insignificant next to the US and Russian supplies flowing from other sources.
With the relative short range hauling such a weapon aloft would give any aircraft, add the Russians contesting the air space and it equals many of these birds will be killed near/in the nest. Another point, tons of fighters would have to be tasked to flying escort to keep those birds alive as long as possible, preventing many CAP missions at other points of the line.

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Also, a great thing with what ifs? is that you can also have who and what you want to have allocated to fighting this great battle.

Even if the "Giganta" bomber (forgive me Erich) needed fighter protection, simply put, I would have transferred A fighter group from JG 53 (Erich Hartmanns, group) Yes, I know--Hartmann was never near Stalingrad nor was near that area of the Eastern Front, but JG 53, had a good many experten fighter pilots to choose from. So fighter protection would not be that big of a deal.

As Panzergrenadier pointed out, the bombs most likely would have been dropped at crucial points--like staging areas, on supply depots-etc etc etc.

Surly one has to conceed that these bombs would have been VERY effective and VERY "irratable" to say the least--for the Russians.

Dont get me worng and far be it to say that I would never call Russian soldiers cowards--or anything of that nature--that would be stupid and VERY blind for me to do so.

What im saying is that....even these tough Russian Combat troops, would HAVE to call it quits--even they....could have enough.

Bomb the docks along the river--the staging areas along the river--some of the massed artillery and armored units--the depots--the factories, that were producing raw T-34's and sending them right off the production lines right into combat--the tenacious and brave Russian fighters would have almost no chances for anykind of victory there.

You would have to admit that, if one of thses bombs had dropped on an area that had up to a few thousand men staging for their crossing to the fight, and had a bomb dropped where they were organizing at--then obliterating the area for a radious of 600 yards--one moment a few Battalions or maybe a Regiment was there--the next--very few if any survivors. Do you think that the neighboring witnesses would be in any shape to cross and fight? possible some--but this would have devestating effects on the other ranks, and I dont think even the NKVD trash could "persuade" them to go marching into Der Hexen Kessel--just to get slaughtered there also...and die.

The common Russian soldier had nerves of Steel, guts of Iron and Balls of Brass--but so did the common Landser. The difference is: cut off the Russian head (meaning kill or somehow dispose of--many officers) and you do not have a very effective fighting force. As with the Germans--they could adapt and overcome the losses of their commanders, and still be very effective soldiers.

[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

The prospect of heavy bombers accurately dropping super-heavy bombs into critical spots is mind-boggling, of course.

Used in autumn or even summer of 1942, such weapons would probably have given Stalingrad to the Germans in a more or less destroyed state by October, say? The infamous counter-attack in November would perhaps not even have come, and if so could have been disrupted.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

Good post Andreas and I agree. Heck, even if these bombs had not been exactly on target--I think the Russians would have quit the battle anyway.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

As I mentioned ealier about hitting the landing area of the volga. With the help of the bombs disrupting reenforcements from getting across the river the russians in the city couldn't hold out very long against the germans with the high causlities they were recieving. So without troops holding a part of the city the russian counter attack probably would have never happened.

__________________
"Front leaning rest position"
"Move"
"In cadence, exercise....1, 2, 3" (My favorite thing to hear at 5 in the morning.)