What IF the German government was thinking about raising a certain battleship wreck off the bottom of the ocean and refloating it? What if this was turned into one of the few battleships open to the public as a museum exhibit??

Technologically, I am absolutely certain this would be possible. Furthermore, I am also certain that it would attract easily a million visitors per year, if not ten or twenty million. It is without much doubt the most famous battleship in history, even though it was never the strongest, fastest or most powerful.

The income from tourists would easily balance the cost to raise it, at the latest after two years. The only question is whether this would be immoral, whether we would be disturbing the rest of the sailors who died with her.

What do you say?

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

As much as i would love to see that wounderful piece of weaponery in the light of day, i am afraid that the fact it is a grave of over 1,000 brave men takes presedence. This has nothing to do with religion. I am not a religious man. But how would we feel if someone wanted to move a war cemetry on land. It should be left were it is and given the repect it deserves. We have plenty of movie footage and should be happy with that.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Andreas :

I really wonder if the strain of the oceans bottom and the equipment at hand by any government could bring the Bismarck up ? The thing is a rusted wreck and would take hours if not years to try and restore, and then restore it to what ? Who would make the guns and the turrets, etc ?
Also yes would it be defilling the ocean graves of many sailors......not sure, it would obviously be watched by all important German officials relating to WaSt and red cross and graves commissions....
personally I would like to see it attempted not so much as a tourist attraction but as a memorial to the fallen from both the Kreigsmarine and the British sailors on the Hood.

Erich

Your answers have merit - that's why I started this topic. I think technically it could be done, although you would have to order a ship to raise the wreck. It's not all that rusted - have you seen the photos?

BTW, I'm in the chatroom at the moment, everybody seems to be online - why not lets talk?

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

My computer has got the gliches today......

I have seen some of the outside of the ship and it doesn't look all that great to me......wonder what can be salvaged from the inside or do we just have a simple shell and as this ship is gingerly raised , am wondering if it will just disengage(losmachen) or fall apart ? Would be nice with German ingenuity if the armaments and other items of the outside could be reformed and placed in the right positions.
As to the graves, I agree with Bish to some point, but in the last 5/6 years there has been numerous gravesites of Luftwaffe pilots/ and aircraft remains removed for internment with the German graves commision and family members and friends being right there and watching the excavation(s). So it is really simple to pick up the remains if there is anything left and give them above the ocean burial with full military honours.

just some more thoughts.....

E

Andreas, did not see your post untill it was to late. Had forgot to log into the chat room at first, but am there now for a while.

Erich, i do see your point. But for some reason, naval grave sights seem to be a bit different. Maybe it should be left to the families to decide.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Guys :

I do wonder though how many living relatives there are still ? probably be a decision by the present Kriegsmarine Associations I think......whether for the surface ships vets or otherwise.

E

I remember someone talking about raising the prinz eugen before. It would be pretty "cool" to raise the bismarck and I know I would sell most of my possessions to just to be able to see it. With it being a grave to so many men it would also feel wrong to move it. Thats just my conflicting thoughts.

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"Front leaning rest position"
"Move"
"In cadence, exercise....1, 2, 3" (My favorite thing to hear at 5 in the morning.)

A thought for you guys // several years ago the idea of retrieving lost bodies of civilians and soldiers that tried to escape from the Bay of Danzig to Copenhagen by surface ships,were sunk by Russian subs and attack aircraft......Spring of 1945....was brought up. It was given to remove some bodily remains and personal possessions of these victims but the governments of Poland and Russia said no, and all that can be done, is on the anniversary of the events from February through April, relatives and friends are permitted to go out in the general areas and drop wreathes in rememberance........so yes, it is a difficult question and possibly without firm answers. Do we leave the fallen where they lie, or give them the proper burial with dignity...?

E

I think that would be really cool to see such a thing...but it would be like raising the Arizona.
Also it is deep as hell...how would it be done?! I'm not so sure we do have the ability to raise such a massive structure from so deep.

I don't know how they raised the Kursk, but investigating into that would be a good starting point. My idea would be to build a high-seas-capable floating crane and with the aid of this vessel (probable cost about 20-40 million) and inflatable air bags it might be done. The ship would have to be computer stabilised, so it doesn't budge an inch in normal seas and winds. Oil excavation ships already have this.

It would be quite a task. I don't remember how deep she is (which is sort of crucial).

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

i looked up and found that the Kursk was at 108 meters which i think is like 350 ft i think.
The Bismark is many times that depth. In fact you can forget raising the Bismarck...i just found how deep it is... look how deep!
"wreck some 600 miles west of Brest at a depth of 4,790 meters (15,700 feet)." that is 2.9 or basically 3 miles deep! I don't think it's possible to raise it.

My Deep Thoughts (not related to saturday night live )

I would think that any ship should be left to lie where she has been since her sinking. I truely would say that this would be immoral to disturb the remains of the ship and crew for public view even if it is of only of the best of intentions.

I too wouldnt mind seeing the Bismarck raised--but only had the crew abandoned ship instead of being intoumbed on it. The ship is a gravesite and should be left undisturbed.

Now, what I would propose is that the German Govt should build replicas of certain things to do with the Bismarck, showing certain scenes on board the mighty ship. I.E. a bridge scene, other scenes, some gunnery scenes etc. Almost like a movie set.

I would think that that would be more appropriate for a way to remember and honor those fallen from the Bismarck and the Hood. Make a place such as this and including a park of monuments to do with the Bismarck and the Kriegsmarine in general. Make it a big place such is like the Marine memorial in Laboe with finishing touches with the likes of the Uboat memorial in Moltenort.

You would have a walk-around area, that would have Plaquettes made of bronze arranged with all the crewmens names of the Bismarck who were lost that day, as well as a few Plaquettes of the names to all the survivors of the Bismarck from that time.

Not only would such a thing would be honoring the Bismarck and the surfacy Navy, but all branches of the Kriegsmarine including a few Coastal Artillery displays, and a Naval Airforce display of somekind.

To answer Andreas question:

The Kursk was raised with iarbags inserted under the Kursk and inflated--or so thats what I heard. They did the samething when they raised the C.S.S. Hunley not too long ago.

The C.S.S.Hunley was the Confererate Navy's own Uboat during our Civil War. If I remember corrcetly, the C.S.S.Hunley sank the U.S.S.Housitonia??

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Schlachtshiffe icon bitte !........laughing....

Carl, some good points. Had formgotten that the ship was deep in the icy waters. Though instead of just on monument to one crew how about like you said about laboe, something along similiar lines to all surface shipes with possible pics of the fallen crews and area of service ? .....I am thinking of the crews of the Graf Spee and the Tirpitz as two on my mind.

E

In total agreement.

If the German Govt was to go to an expense to do something--they might as well as do it and in a big way.

Kind of like the Korean War Memorial (the one that has a full Platoon of soldiers in Bronze and including the Washington momument etc--combined. I think it could be done if there were an effort--heck, I would even donate some money for that to happen as I did donate for the National WW2 Memorial.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I agree with you about the donation. You can count me in. I believe they do this for the U-boat vets memorial at Laboe correct ?

Yes, I would like to see something to the effect in bronze, maybe a sturdy looking flagship with several crewmembers in the foreground....

E

Hi Guys. I posted a message a while back that there was some consideration as to the possibility of raising the Prinz Eugen who lies capsized in shallow water at Eniewetok atoll, (I believe). Her rudder was supposed to have been removed to make a memorial in Germany. She was in such shallow water and in such good, overall condition, that raising her was not ruled out and a definite possibility. Best wishes, John.

Nopw, that does sound like a good idea. If memory serves, she was used in a nuclear test, correst. Which means no worries about it being a grave. Though i wouder how much damaged it suffered. But if it could be raised, it could serve as a memorial to all the ships from the Bismarck chase.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

What a waste--used to test nukes

At least since it isnt a grave--I would be all for the raising of her.

As for Bismarck--HE needs to stay where he is-untouched.

If the German Govt ever decided to seek donations for a Kriegsmarine Memorial I would be happy to donate to its construction, and good idea Erich on the scene.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Would the Prinz still be radioactive ? Of course it would have to go through a major rebuild but what German line ship wouldn't. It would be a great feat and I would pay plenty to see her since she has a colourful past. I have a friend, Otto Reichert that was in a Kriegsmarine land division and posted on the Latvian coast, and he directed ship fire onto Russian artillery-batteries. His words to me were "Mein Gott Erich", you should of seen the destruction from those shells ......there was nothing left".

E

I recall reading accounts that told of Russian armor/infantry attacks coming to a complete halt at the first impact of the Eugen's main battery. Don't forget, she could reach out and touch someone several miles inland- a discomforting thought if you are in the first, attacking wave. The Prinz Eugen was only one of many ships on the gun-line supporting the retreating German forces. The "Pocket Battleship"/Heavy Cruiser Scheer, the Light Cruisers Leipzig, Nurnberg and many destroyers and torpedo boats were there as well.

Correct John !

I found what I was looking for. My friend Otto R. was one of the forward observers here. On the 11th of October 44 and the late afternoon of the 12th the Prinz and Lützow bombarded the hilly, wooded coastal strip around the town of Memel. Shore batteries returned fire but without effect, while attacks by torpedo-bombers were equally unsuccessful. by the 13th the Prinz was safely back at Gotenhafen after expending some 633 rounds from her main armament. The fire from this ship resulted in the message of thanks from the XXVIII Army Korps, Gross Deutschland Division. Thick fog blanketed the sea as the heavy units awaitedmrefuelling and replenishment of magazines in preparation for further bombardments of the advancing Soviets.
Re-ammunitioning of the Lützow was delayed so the Prinz sailed without her on the 15th accompanied by Z35 T21 T13 and T9 at midnight of the 13/14th. Lützow followed later. On the afternoon of the 14th bombardments started again, another 246 rounds being fired in support of the ground forces ashore. Later in the afternoon the Lützow added to the shelling and both ships retreated for the night. By morning it all recommenced. In all, 18 targets were engaged. The Prinz expened 368 rounds. More to come.......

E

The wrecks used in the marine atomb bomb test are no longer radioactive. This caused quite a disturbance when it was deiscovered because they should have been. By now the view is that the water "washed off" all radioactivity probably within years after the test, and distributed it evenly throughout the world's oceans. So that wouldn't be a problem.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel