Hi Guys. Today is the anniversary of the beginning of the Battle of the Bulge-the last chance, throw of the dice offensive by Germany in the West in WW2. What is your opinion as to Germanys chances of splitting the Allied armies in two and taking Antwerp, had Dietrich and Peiper's Panzers made it across the Meuse and into open country before the weather cleared? My own opinion: I think that the Germans would have been atritted by tactical air, when the skies cleared, then sucker punched by Monty in the North and Bradley from the South to close them down. What is your opinion?

Well, under the given circumstances, and without the best of luck (which they didn't get), the operation was doomed despite excellent planning and execution.

If there had been enough fuel for all the vehicles, more trained pilots for the Luftwaffe then the operation could have been a success.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

Intersting observations......I will say that the Luftwaffe in December 44 and January 45 were feeling the full effects of Allied bombing on their industrial plants both day and night. During this ops the Luftwaffe night fighter force were primarily the only air units operating. In a ground attack role dropping small cluster bombs and shooting up anything that moved with their 2cm weapons, they were moderately successful. With as many sorties that were forceably flown, there was much atrition due especailly to Allied .50 cal mg's and the NF force lost more night-fighters in December and January than any other months in their war record.
As for day-time ops, the Luftwaffe was simply overwhelmed, even with it's so called surprise attack on 1 January---- Bodenplatte---- which for about 1 unit / JG 3, was a total waste of men and machines. By the way, there will be a stupendous book written on Bodenplatte and the Bulge ops from 2 Dutch friends in the very near future, covering the Luftwaffe's full participation.

E

Hi Erich. I look forward to that book with baited breath and have already put aside funds for that purchase. Merry Christmas!/ Froliche Weinachten! If I spelled that right. Best wishes, John. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Can you even imagine flying at night with a three man crew and maybe around 500 feet above the ground looking for ground targets, where many are not lit up except for the small village. Anit-aircraft fire is on your mind and all the trees and what open fields there are all look the same. You as a pilot have to know the ground along with your crew. Are you aware of the strange winding terrain features and the rolling hills that cover the Ardenne ? And if it is a clear night is your bordschütze(gunner) watching for the English Mosquito night fighter ?
For the month of all of December 66 RAF bombers were claimed as being shot down. The German night fighter force lost upwards of 114 Bf 110G-4's and Ju 88G-1's and G-6's. Many of the crews simply got lost and ran out of fuel. some flew so low to hit ground targets that they smashed into telephone poles or hit trees, as well as into the hillsides.........
Getting ready for a mission at 22.36 hrs., a Ju 88G-1 from I./NJG 4 left down the runway and crashed killing all 3 crew members, at Rhein-Main airfield. The first of a great many of the attacking forces over the Ardenne.

Erich

Damn, thats riiiight, I had completely forgotten, thanks for the reminder. See you tomorrow for lack of time today.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I would agree that the operation was doomed from the start. Had the resources been available, it could have succeeded. I would have opted for a flexible defense using the superior armour in bleeding the Allies. Doing this would have prolonged the war but it was inevitable as to how it would end. If Germany could have caused more damage to the Allies in following a flexible defense where it would cost the Allies high casualties for every operation, I honestly think that they may have received an offer to end hostilities under more favorable conditions. If it wasn't for the Soviets.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Several points that I have thought about the last 35 years.

1) If the Luftwaffe would of been on equal par with the Allied fighters as to numbers, fuel and pilot reserves with equal training, what then would of happened.... ?

2) What if the German armor units had sufficient maps and knew how to read the strange muddy, winding and often rutted, non-existant road patterns of Belgium, then what ?

3) And lastly, wonder if the German ground forces had equal amount of fuel and reserves as the Allied forces, then what ?

all something to ponder

Erich

Hitler would never have gone for a flexible defense. What ever the germans could have done the outcome of the war couldn't be changed at that point.

Also if hitler had let Model and Von Runstdet use their idea for an offensive around Aachen instead his in the Addennes what do you the chances for it succedding were?

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"Front leaning rest position"
"Move"
"In cadence, exercise....1, 2, 3" (My favorite thing to hear at 5 in the morning.)

Sorry but I must have missed something here....my three points were along the basis for an offense equal to both sides having similar strengths. The what if is simply implied and is a legitimate what if. Regardless of what really did happen I must disagree with your point that things wouldn't have changed this late in the war. Ah, yes they easily could have.......another what if. If the Me 262 would of been the standard fighter in 1943 and built up to sufficient numbers then the Allied bombing offensive both day and night might well have been shattered. using the Schwalbe as history pointed out as a bomber was futile. The arado jet was much better suited to this task. i can imagine also if the 262 would of been wide spread over the Ost Front the Soviet air force would of been eliminated then some interesting things could easily have developed with the Luftwaffe's ground attack units as they would not have had any interference from anything that the Soviets could put up. Again correct me if I am not understanding your statements.

E

Sorry I forgot the what if part. You are completely correct with what you just said. The Me263 would have given the germans much needed control of the skies if it was introduced early enough and in sufficent numbers. Without the allied air power the germans would have stood a very good chance in their offensi

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"Front leaning rest position"
"Move"
"In cadence, exercise....1, 2, 3" (My favorite thing to hear at 5 in the morning.)

Fighting Jets by Walker, Luftwaffe by multiple authors, German Warplanes by Chant, and many others all agree that the foot dragging by the Nazi's to put the 262 in service only gave Messerschmitt time to fix all the bugs. A mass produced 262 in '43 would likely lead to the crumbling of German air power FASTER as faulty 262's would be leaving factories instead of Bf-109's. Aluminum and other strategic metals were in too tight of supply to allow 262 production not to greatly affect production of other aircraft. Also, pilot training for propeller driven aircraft was insufficient, let alone preparing pilots for the intracacies of jet aircraft.
It wasn’t until the 262's final configurations that airframe and engine design flaws were competently addressed, and even then the engines were about as reliable as an AMC Gremlin.
(Quick point: If the Germans had equal force equivalents there wouldn’t be Americans in Belgium, their bodies would littering the French beaches still)

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It's a sick, sick world. I'm a happy man.

Guten Tag neighbor.......

Remember Tally that I am speaking of a what IF !

If the Luftwaffe had 262's already in place with front line units. Do not quote anything from any books and just think aobut my 3 points made earlier. You maybe right about the Normandy senario though. But we are talking about the Ardenne. Things might have been much more intersting besides the road of death would of been strewn out much longer in Europe...

any snow over your place ? Raining cats and odgs here.

E

The germans were alleged to have access to jet technology as early as 1934/5 you could in fairness trace their eventual defeat to their failure to embrace the jet at that time.

Gary and others, Freidrich, hello and welcome aboard !

just thinking of winter again and the German night fighter force coming up against ground targets during the cold wintery nights, many of them with less that 35 feet visibility and still expected to perform with small 50kg bombs and to shoot up anything that might be on the roadway......hey, watch out for your own troops guys !
Gary, I agree the technology was there but we have to look to see who was the master--der Führer, what an odd ball ! You are right guys that the attack and the whole bloddy offensive should have been turned over to others with much more skill. And keep fatty (Göring) away from the map tables.....what an idiot ! To pursue ground attack at night is a noble thought if you have very well trained and experienced crews on your hands but give un-trained crews of 5-6 missions with hardly an air kill to their credit and absolutely no experience in nachtschlact missions then everyone knows what will be the obvious. Truly sad, but quite an intersting period of time.
It is interesting also to note that during the Luftwaffe attack on 1 January 1945(Bodenplatte, that each one of the leading Geschwaders(wings) was led by 1 to 2 Ju 88G-6 night fighters. These fighters were to remain in constant contact with the Geschwader kommodore who was leading the attack in their sectors against the Allied airfields, and only when the day fighters were sure of the direction and placement of the airfields were the night fighters to leave and attack targets of opportunity with their 4 2cm weapons. In one case as a US 4 .50 quad postion was taking on day fighters, one of the Ju 88G-6's dropped out of the lead and blew the quad and the emplacement away and then calmly swooped up and took the lead postion again with the other night fighter.......

more later.

E