What would be the implications?
Where would Germany go from here?
your thoughts, please....

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Hmmmm, I wonder....usually I don't really go for what if's....too many if's usually, but having just finished Anthony Beever's Stalingrad I would like to venture...Please note that I am a strategic nitwit...

Reading Beever's book leads me to believe that it depends on when 6th army would have taken the city. If they could have taken it early on, it would have given them time to reorganise and pre-empt any possible counter attack. although....Well into the battle Hitler wanted the 6th to fight on because it would hold many russian divisons from averting their attention to the German forces near the caucausus. I don't think the Germans would have been able to push any further immedeatly after the capture of Stalingrad. They needed time to recuperate and reinforce their divisions. In the meantime the russians were amassing armys anyway for a counter attack. Whether the 6th would have actually taken Stalingrad or not wouldn't really have mattered, I feel. The germans would have been able to reorganise their forces of course, but a russian counter attack was coming anyway, meaning they would loose the initiative anyhow.

All was lost when Hitler decided to hold on to the capture (and later defense) of Stalingrad till the last man. I gather from Beever that it was more a matter of prestige that of tactical/strategic importance...

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Good answer Stevin. I would agree. The next step obviously would be Moscow but they could only do that once the Caucasus was taken and the Germans consolidated their gains. But at this point, I think the Germans were biting off more than they could chew. Moscow would probably have become the 'Stalingrad' in this what if.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Agree with Stevin on this one.
I've always thought that although initially an important objective, as the Stalingrad fighting intensified the battle took on a militarily irrational, 'idealogical' aspect for both sides - similar perhaps to Verdun in WWI.
( A thought on the overall campaign : I've never been there, but I remember reading in Guderian's memoir of the sheer vastness of Russia, which no European could truly comprehend )

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

[ 05 July 2002, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I have to agree with a few of you here, and glad I didnt really have to anser as what id say is already said. Sort of

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Bla, bla.

We do all the work and he gets the credit...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I don't think losing Moscow would have had the same effect on the Russians as...say losing Paris would to the French. In fact, with the mobile factories, I think the Russians were prepared to lose Moscow. Stalingrad started out as a strategically important battle, but ended up being a pissing contest between Hitler and Stalin, and every day it dragged on was a day in favor of the defender. Why pour so much manpower into fighting over a pile of rubble? No, I think if the Germans had cordoned off Stalingrad and went around it, they would have been able to finish off the Caucases, and captured the oil that they needed. Then they might have been able to negociate a seperate peace with Moscow, or at least held what they had. Most likely, they never should have attacked Russia in the first place, as they never would have been able to hold the country for an indefinate length of time. More resources into Africa, they take the Middle East, and they have all the oil they would ever need. Well, now I'm way off on a tangent, aren't I? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Bottom line is unless they take Stalingrad in a week or two, it really only delays the inevatible.

heh heh, thanks for the morning laugh Friedrich, and Oddball--have you seen Kelly around lately?

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

heh heh, thanks for the morning laugh Friedrich, and Oddball--have you seen Kelly around lately?

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

heh heh, thanks for the morning laugh Friedrich, and Oddball--have you seen Kelly around lately?

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

The continuation for the campaign would probably have been Operation Taifun, which was nearly launched as it was, which aimed to take Astrakhan (on the Caspian) within two weeks.

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Crapgame:"Relax. Neither does he."

Big Joe: "ODDBALL!!, that guys a freak!"
Kelly: " Yeah maybe but, he has FOUR Shermans all ready to go".

Babra: "Joe?"
Big Joe: "Ya what do you want Barbara?"
Babra: "Eh the Captain wants to see ya"
Big Joe: "Tell him ill be there in a minute"
((Outside and in the rain))
Babra: "Joe...Joe"
Big Joe: "What do you want Barbara?"
Babra: "Joe dont call me Barbara"
Big Joe: "thats your name isnt it?"
Babra: "But my names Babra"
Big Joe: "SHADDUP".

German Panzer Oberscharfuhrer: "You, ze American Army"
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BababaBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMmm.

[ 03 July 2002, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

[ 05 July 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Heh heh heh, lines from the ever so classic war movie--Kellys Heroes.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

If Paulus and his 6th army had taken stalingrad, they wouldve effectivly cut the ussr's armed forces in 2. Having cut the Bolsheviks last supplyline of North south direction. This would have made the remaining soviet units in the caucuses easy pray for the panzer armies. With thier new black gold at hand , the germans couldve pushed south for a linkup with rommel in N. Africa, and ultimatly india. They couldve also pushed north fron Stalingrad, taking moscow from its soft underbelly, alon with an offensive by armygroup centre. This wouldve Open the gateway to asia for the germans. BTW, this only my second post, im very glad to meet you all, and cant wait to here your views on these subjects.

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Hallo, Carl von Mannerheim! (Now we have a probem: two Carls...)

I wished I was not so pissed off by some stupid affairs which happened here and have not erased my response. But I will mention it again, Carl. And Wilkommen by the way. We all hope to see you oftenly here!

The fall of Stalingrad would have had a serious repercussion in the war in the East (althought the outlay would have been exactly the same).

The curve of the Don river would have been secure as well as the Volga. Then, Army group B's units could have been sent to support Army group A in the Caucasus as well as VIII Fliegerkorps. The sucess in the Caucasus would have been bigger of course and Friedrich von Paulus would have replaced Jodl as chief of operations of the Wehrmacht. But you must consider that there were lots of untouched Soviet troops and a raising industry behind the Urals. And that the Wehrmacht, even winning was going weaker and weaker. the war in the East would have been onger and bloodier.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

True, as in all communists countries, thier infantry comes at you in waves, however, had paulus taken stalingrad,The caucases wouldve been in german hands. With thier new oil, and other resources, they wouldve atleast prolonged their stay in russia by a year. Witch wouldvr bought them some time to develope thier new aircraft.(say, nice idea, im makin a new post)

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Carl von Mannerheim's post is interesting.

The 'link-up with Rommel' possibility is beguiling but ....
I think the timing would have been totally wrong.
The Afrika Korps was virtually 'finished' at 2nd Alamein in October 42. By November they were in full retreat, managing one last 'surprise' at Kasserine in Jan '43. But that was the end - and they had retreated a long way west.

Stalingrad was encircled in November '42. Even if the Germans had won Stalingrad earlier, by the time they reached North Africa, there would have been no DAK to link with - just an Allied army to face. Actually, that may have been interesting .... !

When you think about it, apart from the obvious enemy, the Germans were always at a disadvantage on the Ostfront from timing, distance and the weather.

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Martin, Carl von:

Both offensives were too weak by November as Martin pointed out. Many of the German resources were being sent to Stalingrad and it is stupid, because the city was just a bloody filthy hole. It is STUPID to have three Panzer divisions which cannot maneuver, by the way, in a four kilommetres wide front!!!! What would those three Panzer divisions have done if they were in El Alamein instead of Barrikady factory?! Quite a difference. But let's suposse that Stalingrad is taken in the first days of October and that Rommel wins at Alam Halfa and destroys VIII Army. I cannot imagine the supplies problems and the fact that we did not have the capability of supply two attacks 4.000 kilommetres from Germany in the middle East... It is simply impossibe to keep them supplied and give them air support, considering that the Red Army is growing bigger and bigger and is attacking Army gruops North and Centre, the Americans are in Algeria, etc. It is simply impossible, there were no logistics, no men, no nothing to make this. I still insisting to you and to many people that there was a chance to win the war, to defeat Great Britain and the Soviet Union, but those chances were in Autumn 1940, with "Seelöwe" and in Winter 1941 with "Barbarossa", after that, with the enormous amount of losses in men, above all, and equipment, it was out our possibilities.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

( A small voice says )
Thank God for the RAF !

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson