U guys from the Strat Comm. Forum are sick of Finns. But what do you think wouldve happened had the Finns raced ahead in summer of 1941, depite the germans telling them not to, and captured leningrad before it was made into a fortress.

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Well, I think that if they could have achieved it, then the rest would have been easier for us. Finninsh troops were very good troops wich fought very bravely in Winter 1939-1940 and later, during "Barbarossa". They were equipped with some German weapons, and althought they were only five finnish divisions they were good divisions.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I was always under the impression that the Germans wanted the Fins to help seal off Lenningrad.But the Finns only wanted to take back the land Russia took from them. When this was achieved they halted as hey wanted nothing to do with the Nazis aims

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

If the Finns had captured Leningrad...I think in the long run, it would not have made a difference. The Finns were tough, but once Germany gets defeated at Stalingrad, the war would still be pretty hard to reverse.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

I don't think it would have changed too much. Leningrad wasn't a very strategic location. that's even if the Finns could have taken it in the first place.

BTW welcome to the forums dasreich, I love the homepage, especially "Sepp Martin" [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Phear der PanzerPenguin!
HellFish love teh

Wilkommen, das Reich!

We hope to see you here oftenly!

And I think that a victory on Leningrad would have only helped in realeasing troops for the strike on Moscow and not viceverse...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

First--for Peppy. Long time no hear but, many thanks for all of your medals icons work--job well-done. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I think the Finns could have encircled leningrad and held off the russians, with maybe the help of a japanese attack on the russians--to draw away some armored forces==as the Finns had very little in that department.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Well, here´s the view of a finnish person to this matter. My father was a captain in the finnish army in the 1960-70:s so we´ve discussed this a few times...

I know that the German forces were stopped by Hitler´s order, and let Leningrad starve to death. That almost happened. The reason why finns didn´t go any further than the old border in the Karelian isthmus is not clear. It is obvious that Mannerheim stopped them, later on it has been spoken that he was so wise he could foresee that Germany would lose by then. To me it sounds like a very bad excuse. We had the will and also lust for blood after winterwar´s cruel peace terms.Maybe Mannerheim didn´t want to shed finnish blood and decided to wait for the germans to end the siege? I tend to believe so. But if we had, and I believe we should have attacked and we could have won, it would have released lots of german troops to fight elsewhere and might have been the final nail to Stalin´s coffin. Who knows? But now you know the finnish view of this mysterious phenomenon.

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From Turku eh? Hoes the weather there this tome of year? Anyway. The point made about releaseing german troops in a good one. I dont believe this would be the decideing factor. But let me change the question a bit. What if Finland Captured Leningrad in 1940?

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In 1940?! No way possible... Without German support?!! Yeah...

I think that we did not attack Leningrad because it would have become another Stalingrad with the horrendous ammount of casualties that urban warfare means... Sun Tzu said it: "Avoid urban fighting". To end the Sieg it was necessary more air and artillery support. And the Kriegsmarine guns would have been very, very useful. But even so, the infantry would have had to enter and occupy...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

No way back in 1940! We had our hands full fighting back and the winterwar ended in march 1940. Actually if Russia had wanted they would have taken Finland but they were embarrasseD in the foreign press as we put hard back and they couldn´t take it! England and France promisedhelp but probably they would have stayed in northern Sweden to protect iron and copper mines from the russians! So to end more humiliation Stalin was forced to start negotiations for peace..I guess this was one the points why Hitler thought Russia would go down easy as they couldn´t take even Finland!

In 1941 the russians were in full retreat during the initial phases of barbarossa. That´s when we should have hit fast and taken Leningrad before they had secured the city!It never happened.

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That is more plausible, Kai. And perhaps you could have done it.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Ok, I bet a lot of you guys know this but just to remind some remember that Leningrad (= St Petersburg these days ) was the birthplace of the communistic revolution, where Lenin began it all. So it would have been a big victory to show to the world if captured. I feel like it would have been a bigger news than Stalingrad just because it is THE PLACE.What do you guys think about it?

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Thats what ive been getting at! Talk about the support the finns wouldve gotten if they took it in 1940!

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Yes, but in 1940 it was absolutely impossible. Even if Finland would have won in 1939!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Kai, We all also know that the Finnish soldiers were very tough, did amazing things with so little. I think (based on what I have read on different sites and read in different books) the reason for Mannerheim stopping where he did wasnt due to his thinking that early on that Germany would lose the war, I believe that it had to do with political pressure put to him by the Allies. This is kind of like what happened to Franco and why Spain never got off the fence and sided fully with the Germans. What the pressure was was, that he faced invasion from the allies, more death and destruction etc. And as a worse case scenerio, that the russians would be allowed to occupy Finland and basically do as they pleased.

Sometime ago, I found an excellent site about Finlands war with russia, and the stories and interviews I read on what happend totally amazed me of the tenacity and bravery of the out-manned and out-gunned Finnish forces. It was then that I gained total respect for the Finnish people--not that I had lacked any before. But I could see by weapons numbers--military personnel numbers, casualties etc etc etc, that Finland--sich a tiny nation--being bullied by the russians and they in error--thinking that Finland would be an easy victory, decided to play the bully.

I was so amazed at the Finns for what they accomplished. The amount of russian casualties vs Finn casualties, was totally amazing. The Russians lost what==several hundreds of thousands of casualties, to whatever the Finnish number was. I know that being such a small country compared to russia, that the Finnish numbers were considered high, but because of being not so large a country. The casualty differences were what? 70 to 1?? or am I mistaken?

I hope you see this posting and hope that you will let your father know, of how much respect I have for the Finnish people.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Thanx C. I really appreciate what you´re saying and it´s nice to know people are interested. Check the site for lesser known eastern front battles, I put there a little something on winter war and a net site address.
I´ll tell the greetings to my dad!

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Your quite welcome Kai, and also, ANYTHING to do with the Eastern Front--is my main area of interest--specially Stalingrad, and the Finnish Front. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Oh and I almost forgot--thanks! and I hope your dad will visit this site sometime--I would love to hear what he has to say.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Yes, I would love to hear from your father as well. A little unknown aspect of the Ost /Front war. did you know there was a single seat/engined night fighter gruppe stationed in finland...for a time ?, .....JG 302.

Hi there!

I guess everybody´s been on weekend holiday..reading about the WW2?? me too!!

Anyway, that JG 302 sounded interesting! Have you got more details on that? I´d love to hear about it!

All the luftwaffe planes in southern Finland I know is the Flight squadron Kuhlmey, which flew from Utti to help us fight the russians during their great summer attack of june 1944 in the karelian isthmus.It included some 50 Focke Wulfs, and 38 Ju 87´s. They flew non-stop flights and abled us to keep the russians away. This squadron was part of the deal we made with Germany named " the Ribbentrop deal" and as well we got loads of panzerfausts etc. Thanx to all of this in just one battle of tali-Ihantala we smashed some 600 russian tanks! Some 50 000 finns fought 150 000 russians, and as such it was even bigger a fight than el Alamein by finnish history writers. I can send the site if interested.

See ya !

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