MP 38,

Indeed to get the bigger picture I suggest you read the ideas on this section properly.It is always how you yourself see it, as we all have somewhat different views, depending on nationality etc.

For myself I think Franco wanted to see that the war would actually turn favourable to the axis until he would join the war. There had been the Spanish civil war where many people were killed and as well the equipment was not the standard to start fighting the allied at the time (1940 ).The Germans had helped Franco to win but he didn´t see himself being in debt that much anyway.
I believe there was alot of pressure by the UK ans USA, as taking Gibraltar would have changed the balance totally in the Mediterranean on the axis behalf.So no operation Felix.

The situation in Turkey was discussed as well:

http://www.ww2forums.com/cgi-bin/ubb...c;f=3;t=000093

Their army was totally useless for ww2 campaigns.With proper equipment I believe they would have taken their place but that would have taken years to accomplish.As well there was no strategic situation in war ( like Rommel in Israel ) that would have given a booster for them to enter the war.They probably were more valuable sith exchanging goods with Germany as has been discussed. Of course if they would have attacked Russia it would have given them more headache but it would not have been like another blitzkrieg.

__________________

Kai

Running through the Med' to Alex was always off the cards once Italy was in the war. This in effect cut the "all-red-route" to India and tied up far larger quanitities of shipping going around Africa. It was to free up this shipping that Alanbrooke was convinced of the need to deal with Italy and the Med first, rather than the US desire to go straight into France. Brooke and the Brits were not convinced that they could effectively sustain a front in France without regaining this diverted tonnage.

Jumbo

__________________
"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

The Americans didn't wanted to attack Italy, but rather South-France.

But becuase the Brittish had the most troops in Noth-Africa, they decided where to land. It became Sicily and South-Itlay.

__________________

I don't see that invading Spain would have been a wise decision. Spaniards are though fighters and Spain's terrain is very good for guerrilla warfare. Look at what happened to Napoleon in 1808... Then I can only see a bloody fighting in Spain, a lot of atrocities, many resources wasted and no taking of Gibraltar.

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

It was also said that the Low-countries were difficult to attack with tanks, due to the many rivers. But in the end it was very easily.

The Germans were after all the inventors of the Blitzkrieg, so there is no way to think that they couldn't defeat Spain in 2 months.

__________________

Actually, I believe it was the Polish who invented the blitzkrieg...I think. But anyway, I dont think Germany would have much problem defeating the Spanish Army...but the guerillas would certainly take their toll.

Also, I am curious as to the fate of Portugal if Spain had joined the Axis. Would she be occupied, forced to join, or left alone?

__________________
"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

I realy fought the Germans invented the Blitzkrieg and not the Polish.
But maybe you can give me some proof in which war they used it.

And about the ressistance in Spain, I think you could compare it to the Maquis in France.

And Portugal would be left neutral. Portugal was also the only country which hung the flag in the middle of the stick on 30 april 1945.

__________________

Actually we were both wrong. Charles De Gaulle of all people suggested its theory in 1934. Needless to say, the French didnt listen.

The Germans were the first to employ these tactics on the battlefield, however, in Poland.

__________________
"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

The French?????????????

Oh man, I'm surprised.

__________________

Hart and Guderian also thought it up. Guderian was really the father of German Blitzkrieg. But the concept was discussed in many countries at the time. I wouldn't say that any single person or country can be credited with inventing the idea.

__________________
„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

Andreas is right. Actually, the first real theory about the Blitzkrieg (learned from many tactics in WWI) was made by the British military expert Basil Lidell-Hart. Then, an unknown French officer named Chrles DeGaulle came up with some concepts too. So, a German officer in the 1930s, named Heinz Guderian learned from Lidell-Hart and DeGaulle to make his own theories helped in many ways by the early studies in armoured warfare made by another German officer in the late 1920s: Walter Model.

It is curious how the names come up in places where you didn't imagine.

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Interesting article on operation Felix:

http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/history/felix.shtml

Operation Felix: Assault on Gibraltar

Following a number of detailed reconnaissance missions by officers wearing civilian clothing and studying the Rock from Spanish soil as well as seaward perspectives, the Wehrmacht in the summer and autumn of 1940 drew up detailed plans for Operation Felix, the assault on Gibraltar. Only failure at the highest levels of diplomacy prevented the operation from occurring at the beginning of 1941.

German Plans

Under the overall command of Field Marshal Walter von Reichenau, the German plan called for two corps to move into Spain in the middle of January 1941 with the consent of Generalissimo Francisco Franco. General Rudolf Schmidt's XXXIX Corps would cover the flank of the Gibraltar assault against any British intervention: the 16th Motorized Division would concentrate in the vicinity of Valladolid, the 16th Panzer Division around Caceres, and the SS Totenkopf Division at Sevilla.

General Ludwig Kuebler's XLIX Corps would control the actual attack on the Rock. The assault forces would comprise the Grossdeutschland Infantry Regiment, the 98th Regiment of the 1st Mountain Division, 26 medium and heavy artillery battalions, three observation battalions, three engineer battalions, two smoke battalions, a detachment of 150 Brandenburgers, and up to 150 radio-controlled midget tanks ("Goliaths") packed with high explosives.

Two additional divisions were earmarked to cross the Straits of Gibraltar and garrison Morocco after the successful completion of Felix.

Due to the limited capacity of the Spanish rail system (which was not of the standard European gauge), much of the German ground force would move by road to its objectives.

The Luftwaffe would contribute Ju 88As, Stukas, Messerschmitts, three light AA battalions, and three heavy AA battalions. The Kriegsmarine would cooperate by using U-boats to interfere with British naval movement and emplacing coastal batteries to further discourage the Royal Navy.

From staging areas on the Spanish border near Bayonne, the ground troops would cross the frontier simultaneously with an initial raid by Ju 88As flying from Bordeaux against British vessels in the Gibraltar anchorage. While the Ju 88As carried out their mission, Ju 87s and Me 109s would transfer to airbases at Sevilla and finish the job of sinking British ships or driving them away from Gibraltar.

With its flank protected by XXXIX Corps, XLIX Corps would move into position for the attack. A tremendous barrage was scheduled to knock out every known defensive emplacement in the Rock, followed by the arrival of the Luftwaffe for a succession of Stuka strikes against positions still firing when the assault troops began moving forward. German artillery fire would methodically demolish surviving casemates while smoke-generating units shrouded Grossdeutschland and the 98th Mountain Regiment. Due to the extremely limited frontage of the position, only those two regiments plus supporting engineers would be committed in the actual assault.

Meanwhile, the Brandenburgers -- disguised as sailors abandoning a sinking ship -- intended to land inside British defenses in small boats and clear the way for the assault troops.

British Defenses

Had Operation Felix taken place during January 1941 as planned, what opposition would the attackers have faced?

In September 1939 the garrison comprised two British battalions: 2nd The Kings Regiment and 2nd Somerset Light Infantry. 4th Devonshire arrived in May 1940 and 4th Black Watch in July 1940, so by January 1941 four infantry battalions were in place. (Later in the war this strength grew to 1st and 2nd Gibraltar Brigades with additional battalions.)

3rd Heavy Regiment, Royal Artillery (previously "Gibraltar Coast Defenses" and later redesignated 3rd Coast Regiment) controlled 4th, 26th, and 27th Batteries with 8 x 9.2-inch guns, 7 x 6-inch guns, and 6 x twin 6-pounders. (Artillery strength also grew considerably later in the war.)

In September 1939 two AA batteries, the 9th and 19th, defended Gibraltar from air attack with 4 x 3-inch, 4 x 3.7-inch, and 2 x 40mm guns. HQ 10th AA Regiment was later formed to control the two batteries. The 82nd Heavy AA Regiment arrived in July 1940 with three batteries (156th, 193rd, and 256th) including 16 3.7-inch guns, 8 x 40mm Bofors guns, and the first radar sets. 3rd Searchlight Battery also arrived in July. Some shuffling of assets and re-numbering of units followed (including departure of HQ 10th AA Regiment, but no batteries); however, this AA strength was not further reinforced until March 1941.

Because there were no fighters based at Gibraltar during this time (and no facilities for supporting them), AA fire was the only defense against the bombing of Gibraltar (including Vichy French air raids in 1940, but that's another story).

Later Plans

Given free passage through Spain for their ground troops and air forces, German planners were confident an assault in January 1941 would yield victory. However, Franco's consent was not forthcoming and the operation was postponed, transformed, and ultimately abandoned.

With Operation Barbarossa (the invasion of the Soviet Union) looming and units being transferred to the east, by 10 March 1941 Felix had been amended to become Operation Felix-Heinrich, for which German troops would be withdrawn from the USSR to capture Gibraltar when the approximate line Kiev-Smolensk-Opotschka was reached. Because the campaign in the Soviet Union did not succeed as planned, nor did Franco alter his position, even this amended version of the operation was not implemented.

Operation Isabella was conceived in April 1941, originally due to Hitler's fear of British landings on the Iberian peninsula. Rather than an Axis invasion of Spain, Isabella was designed as a measure by which German troops would advance into Spain to support the Franco regime and defeat the British expeditionary force.

In May 1942, with available resources shrinking, Isabella was replaced by the similar but less extravagant plan named Operation Ilona. Ilona was for security reasons renamed Operation Gisela in September 1942.

In June 1943 Gisela was replaced with Operation Nurnberg, a contingency plan which called for, in the event of an Allied landing in Portugal or Spain, a defensive strategy in the Pyrenees. This marked the end of planning for operations in Spanish territory. At this point the plan -- and German capabilities -- had been reduced to two reinforced regiments and "certain labor formations".

__________________

Also, The Axis could have put air bases on Western Spain that could be capable of reaching the United States.

__________________
Go-Flames-Go

Brad

With what?

__________________
"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

They would have been closer launching from Norway

__________________

American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

And what if they could use the Isles Canaries for their planes (long bombers) and to refuel their
U-Boats.

__________________

Interesting but I have not found other clues to confirm this piece of information:

On Griffiths´ " Marshal Petain" it is claimed that Franco offered to join the nazis in June 1940 as he thought the battle was over in the west (!!). According to the author Franco believed he could get French territory for joining the "war". The Germans however did not show much interest at the time. Later in autumn the situation was different and Franco would not join the axis even if Hitler asked him to.

__________________

Hitler wqas unwilling to surrender Vichy French Territory to Spain to gain Franco as an Axis partner as it would damage his relationship with the Puppet Patain government and prolong French resistance to the new order.

This is the argument given in Rise and fall of the Third Reich, The Germans needed to pacify the Frence state and consolidate the west. Gaining the week Ally of Spain (which would require Germany support anyway) when Hitler thought the war in the west was all but won was not worth the cost of creating an issue with the new Vichy regime.

Better to be happy with a proped-up weak Axis mnor, than damage that relationship to add another weak Axis minor to your list of open mouths to feed.

__________________
"If your going to get it, take one with you!"

Correct, MontE.

__________________
Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

True enough. Had Mussolini taken the same route as el Caldillo, this would have benefited Hitler have to "Neutral" partners where he could obtain valuable trade goods.

__________________

American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Right, an Axis Spain would be more of a liability rather than an asset, as Spain was coming from a murderous civil war, and there was widespread misery and economic disruption, so her people would need to ber fed and her armed forces reequipped. In the end El Caudillo (caldillo is a kind of soup, stick to your StuGs ) took the right decision as in the end nobody disembarked in Spain.

Italy might be another matter. It would be interesting to look at the implications of a neutral Italy At least there would be no running sore African and Italian campaigns, but I'm getting

__________________
Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."