Spain joins Axis - Page 4

Za Rodinu · #76 (**permalink**) March 14th, 2008, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontE

I agree that the "What If" of Italy's neutrality would be interesting

"Go ahead, make my day"

Open a new thread, by all means!

Slipdigit · #77 (**permalink**) March 14th, 2008, 09:52 PM

NO NO, by all that is good and righteous in this forum, please no!

I beg of you in the name of humanity.....

British-Empire · #78 (**permalink**) March 15th, 2008, 11:09 AM

I read a few months ago about a proposed German invasion of Spain can’t remember the name of it but it involved making use of Spain’s ethnic minorities the Basques, Catalans and to a lesser extent the Galician’s.
VichyFrance was going to gain Catalonia and the Basque country.

British-Empire · #79 (**permalink**) March 15th, 2008, 11:17 AM

If Spain had entered the war I can see the Axis forces taking Egypt by the end of 1941 and the Turks entering the war not against the Soviets but against the British mainly to reclaim their imperial territory they lost in World War 1.

Tomcat · #80 (**permalink**) March 15th, 2008, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Empire

If Spain had entered the war I can see the Axis forces taking Egypt by the end of 1941 and the Turks entering the war not against the Soviets but against the British mainly to reclaim their imperial territory they lost in World War 1.

Why would the Turks enter the war this time, and not in real history?

IN my opinion taking over spain or having spain join the axis would (as said earlier) just make a larger shoreline to defend, the Germans didn't have enough men to battle in Italy, Africa, Russia, SouthEast Europe, Norway, France and then attempt to make a continous atlantic wall from Denmark all the way down to SPain, although the jump of into North Africa and the cutting of the British forces in the Med would be a great blow to the Allies eliminating the Soft Underbelly I only think that it serves the Allies, being able to now push even more men and materials into an invasion area on the new 'atlantic wall', there were just not enough men to do it all.

Za Rodinu · #81 (**permalink**) March 15th, 2008, 05:09 PM

B.E., please leave the cake a bit longer in the oven, as it is completely half-baked as it stands.

Even if Spain entered on the Axis side and did block the Gibraltar Strait, it wouldn't make much difference to the outcome of the war in the Western Desert, as in any case supplies to Egypt were already coming in from the Red Sea, taking the long detour by Cape Good Hope. So no difference there.

~~Ironcross~~ · #82 (**permalink**) March 15th, 2008, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

B.E., please leave the cake a bit longer in the oven, as it is completely half-baked as it stands.

Even if Spain entered on the Axis side and did block the Gibraltar Starit, it wouldn't make much difference to the outcome of the war in the Western Desert, as in any case supplies to Egypt were already coming in from the Red Sea, taking the long detour by Cape Good Hope. So no difference there.

So what. Had South Africa joined the axis, Germany still could have won the war.

Kai-Petri · #83 (**permalink**) March 15th, 2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

Even if Spain entered on the Axis side and did block the Gibraltar Starit, it wouldn't make much difference to the outcome of the war in the Western Desert, as in any case supplies to Egypt were already coming in from the Red Sea, taking the long detour by Cape Good Hope. So no difference there.

Yes, but end of Malta though, I suppose....?!

Hawkerace · #84 (**permalink**) March 15th, 2008, 10:39 PM

Probably a evacuation of the island and then a blockade like the English channels when it would be occupied by its Italian/German aggressors.

Za Rodinu · #85 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2008, 12:53 PM

Yes, Kai, but the fall of Malta would mean less losses to Axis shipping, not less supplies to the Allies.

Now what Ironcross is saying does have a grain of truth

As a matter of fact, IIRC some of the SAF used to be Ju-86. So...

Za Rodinu · #86 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2008, 01:26 PM

Another interesting point is that if Spain did join the Axis, this would put Portugal in a very difficult position with a belligerent across the border.

Portugal in 1942 ceded rights to build bases in the Azores Islands, which were very important to the Battle of the Atlantic. At worst a belligerent Spain would take this as a casus belli and invade. This would likely mean immediate defeat to Portugal, whose land forces were weak and inexperienced (manuals of the time refer to WW1), facing a battle hardened enemy.

Actually the Portuguese were all the time scared sheetless the Spanish would invade anyhow.

This would imply at least (I think) the Allies occupying the Azores and Madeira too, at least for the resorts

Jan7, as a Spaniard what do you think?

Jan7 · #87 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

Another interesting point is that if Spain did join the Axis, this would put Portugal in a very difficult position with a belligerent across the border.

Portugal in 1942 ceded rights to build bases in the Azores Islands, which were very important to the Battle of the Atlantic. At worst a belligerent Spain would take this as a casus belli and invade. This would likely mean immediate defeat to Portugal, whose land forces were weak and inexperienced (manuals of the time refer to WW1), facing a battle hardened enemy.

Actually the Portuguese were all the time scared sheetless the Spanish would invade anyhow.

This would imply at least (I think) the Allies occupying the Azores and Madeira too, at least for the resorts

Jan7, as a Spaniard what do you think?

Follow, I bring my answer in Spanish. I offer my text to Za, for the correct translate of my expressions.....

Querido Za: Esta es mi opinión. Está escrita en español. Te ruego se la traduzcas al inglés a los compañeros del WW2F, tú sabrás traducir los matices de mis expresiones.

En mi modesta opinión, si España se hubiera unido al Eje, Alemania habría ganado la SGM.
Posiblemente Hitler hubiera desplegado a los soldados de sus tres Ejércitos, Aire, Mar y Tierra por todos nuestros territorios, incluidos Marruecos, las Islas Canarias y Guinea Ecuatorial y otros extra peninsulares y evitando a un ejército clasista y muy poco eficaz como era el Español después de nuestra Guerra Civil.

Todos ellos se hubieran convertido en una inmensa y extensa plataforma muy adecuada para la observación y hostigación del enemigo.

En estas circunstancias, El Reino Unido podría haber sido rodeado, aislado con mucha más facilidad y vencido.

Jan.

Slipdigit · #88 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2008, 03:14 PM

Here's Babelfish's take on what you had to say, Juan. Miguel will still have to work on it some.

Quote:

In my modest opinion, if Spain had been united to the Axis, Germany would have gained WW II. Possibly Hitler had unfolded the soldiers of their three Armies, Air, Sea and Earth by all our territories, including Morocco, the Canary Islands and peninsular Equatorial Guinea and other extra and avoiding a clasista army and very little effective like were the Spanish after our Civil War.

All of them had become an immense and extensive platform very adapted for the observation and hostigación of the enemy.

In these circumstances, the United Kingdom could be surrounded, isolated with much more facility and be overcome.

Jan7 · #89 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2008, 04:02 PM

Many thanks, Jeff!.
My petition at Za is for any person who know better than me the English and for answer his previous MP.

And you, that know both languages, interpreted my words very well.

Jan.

Za Rodinu · #90 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2008, 05:48 PM

Oh, please! Who needs Babelfish when you have a polyglot aboard!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan7

In my humble opinion, if Spain had joined the Axis Germany would have won WW2. Probably Hitler would have deployed his armed forces - land, sea and air - over all our territories, including Morocco, Canary Islands and Equatorial Guinea and others overseas, while avoiding a class-ridden and very ineffective army such as ours after the Spanish Civil War.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan7

All of these would have become an immense platform for observation and strike.

Under these circumstances the United Kingdom could have been surrounded, isolated much more easily and defeated.

In any case, it was hard for me to avoid the "tradutore = tradittore" syndrome (translator = traitor), as I don't agree for reasons I said in posts above.

And in the reply there is no mention of Spain's intentions towards Portugal, maybe to in order to spare my feelings

Jan7 · #91 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2008, 06:18 PM

The Spain's intentions (Franco) towards Portugal I think that are very simply: Not exist. He went a militar, not a conqueror......

Jan.

Za Rodinu · #92 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2008, 06:26 PM

Since when those are mutually exclusive? And why wouldn't El Caldillo (as PzJgr called him

) want to have a safe back while joining the over-the-Pyrenees Axis, considering Portugal's obvious pro-Allies tendencies post-Stalingrad?

Oh, considering the post-Stalingrad point, and how long would that alliance last? Remember that was the time División Azul was pulled back

Talk about fair weather friends!

Falcon Jun · #93 (**permalink**) March 17th, 2008, 03:20 AM

Interesting posts and points to consider, guys.
What I want to know is if the Spanish people would accept or are willing to join the war. They just went through a grueling civil war with many dead on both sides. What was the prevailing sentiment at that time? I checked on my Time mag capsules for any news reports about this, I couldn't find any.

Slipdigit · #94 (**permalink**) March 17th, 2008, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

Oh, please! Who needs Babelfish when you have a polyglot aboard!

Not only that, but you speak several languages!

Za Rodinu · #95 (**permalink**) March 17th, 2008, 09:39 PM

You have to watch me twiddling my thumbs backwards!

There was the Iberian Pact, a friendship and non-aggression treaty between Salazar and Franco on the March 17th 1939 (today!!!) at the end of the Sp. Civil War and when new war clouds were gathering. Two protocols were added (1940 and 1948).

I wonder how this pact would fare in the light of changing circumstances.

Full text is here, in Portagee-speak, including Adolf's Directive 18, Operation Felix - Intervention in the Peninsula (Gibraltar, Portugal, etc.)

http://www.areamilitar.net/analise/a...Materia=38&p=9

Now get your Babelfish out, coz I'm not going to translate all this!

Key sentence: "Italian intervention is not envisaged" ...