If Mustang flys an Allison powered P-51A,then anybody can shoot him down.

Being a personell clerk at the pentagon would be a good job. You would have fantastic power and relatively safe.

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Hehe, told you so Timo!

regards

Hmmm, for some reason I never considered those last battles as "The Eastern Front" [img]smile.gif[/img]

On a sidenote, Felgrau mentions 21.PD as stationed in Hungary in 1944 but, despite being detached to Armeegruppe D, they never left France for the east.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Yeah,

sorta what is the criteria for "EASTERN FRONT" battles in the final battles of 1945??
Was there a point when Russians were further to the west than the Americans in Germany before Hitler died/the peace agreement?

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The criteria must be who they were fighting, in this case they were fighting against soviet troops.

regards

Call me crazy but I would want to fight with the french army during the initial invasion in 1940 and then with the resistance or Free french forces for the battles at Gazalla and normandy to name a few.

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"Gerald Duval, Compositeur...I have killed Gerald Duval, the Printer."
-Paul Baumer
"All Quiet on the Western Front"

Gerald, Which army, division or whatever would you be with in May 1940? I have a high regard for the much maligned French soldier in the battle for France...Easy to blame him for the faults of high command and a political system... and a major ally who was perhaps not as committed as they should have been to a land battle...One only has to look at Liddel Hearts ...spelling...view in the thirties to see my own countries views on any assistance the army should give on any war in mainland Europe..Easy to forget Lille and other examples of French soldiery..

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

I dont know that much about the french army to make an educated decision as to which unit i'd go with.
The french lost mainly because she was betrayed by all of her allies in the inter war period. when germany missed a war reperation payment in the 30s and began to remilitarize the rhineland (strictly off limits) the french did as was agreed in the Versailles treaty, they occupied the Rhine land. But what did the allied powers do? they got mad at france and told her to back down, which she did under pressure from Britan, America and Italy. France was the ONLY country to see the danger of Germany in the 30s, but was turned on my her so called "allies"

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"Gerald Duval, Compositeur...I have killed Gerald Duval, the Printer."
-Paul Baumer
"All Quiet on the Western Front"

July 1942-Camp Toccoa, Georgia.
2nd Platoon, Easy Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division under Captain Herbert Sobel commanding, with Lt Richard Winters as Platoon leader.

June 6, 1944-under Lt Richard Winters I would drop into Normandy and fight during the Brecourt Manor action, being relieved after 33 days in the line.

September 17, 1944-after 3 months rest and refitting I am back into action dropping into Holland as part of 'Market Garden'. The duration would be spent on 'Hell's Highway' waiting for an armoured advance to end the European war.

December 16, 1944-whilst on leave in Mourmelon-Le-Grand, the German Army throws an offensive into the Ardennes Forset, committing me again to battle in Belgium this time. In January 1945, my company takes the town of Foy and ends a bitter stalemate that had lasted since the beginning of the Bastogne seige.

January 1945-we move into the town of Hagenau, France and stay there until we can consolidate our position and conduct a raid to capture some German prisoners for intelligence purposes.

April 1945-liberation of Landsberg Concentration Camp. Begin fraternization, against US Army policy, with German women.

May 7, 1945-we capture Berchtesgaden and Hitler's vaunted 'Eagle's Nest' after beating the French there under General LeClerc. The European war ends whilst we are staioned in Zell Am See, Austria soon thereafter.
HAPPY V-E DAY...

September 2, 1945-the Second World War ends with the capitualation of Japan. Regardless of wounds, medals or points, I am going home. In November of that year, the 101st Airborne is deactivated-Easy Company is no more...

THATS WHERE I WOULD SERVE IN WORLD WAR TWO...CURRAHEE!!!

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"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

Panzerknacker,

Truly remarkable career. Hmm, my English is not my native language so I might be wrong so apologizes beforehand in case, but I hope you did not beat the French in anything but time in Berchtesgarden.

I was with my parents in Zell Am See in Sept 2001 as we went to see the Adler´s nest. Quite a nice little place, with the lake in the middle. And the huge mountains around. Of course there´s more action during the winter, I think. But I quite liked the place and will be back, definitely.

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But of course Kai-we beat the frogs there in time-but only just, we had to double back and flank them.
Zell Am See is on my must see list...

__________________
"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

Given the choice I would fight with the British Royal Marines or the American Rangers. Both were brave, skilled and determined

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And when he gets to heaven
To Saint Peter he will tell
One more soldier reporting sir
I have served my time in hell

M Duval

Versailles is often said to have led to the rise of Hitler. The occupation of the Rhineland and the killing of German workers by French troops didn't help things along either. French harshness was arguably as much to blame as appeasement - a policy which successive French governments supported after 1924 until 1935-36, contributing to the collapse of the little entente and their need to accomodate with Hitler after 1933.

If the French were so anti-Hitler why was the cry of the French Right "Better Hitler than Blum?"

Why did they refuse to help the Republicans in Spain?

Why did so many Frenchmen support Petain? Including at the Velodrome St Hiver?

Why did the majority of the 110,000 French troops we took off at Dunkirk choose to return to France under Petain rather than fight on under De Gaulle?

Please don't try and whitewash France, it certainly won't wash with me!

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Jumbo to take some of your points...

Yes are many reasons to look at the French in the way we do.

Their harsh treatment of Germany in the inter war years, beatings of German citizens in French occupied areas etc...All went on, no one can deny..

The country had lost any pretence at middle of the road politics by the start of ww2, there were not many middle ground views around, you were either Left or right wing. The socialists had seen to this with their policies in the inter war years.

This permeated down to the defence industries as well as the rest, and to the soldiers that were to fight any war that was to come. Thats why I say the Battle of France was lost long before a shot was fired in anger at the Germans.

But a few points you raise.

The soldiers who returned to France after their evacuation from Dunkirk..

France was still fighting after Dunkirk, many wanted to rejoin that fight, to some the evacuation was just a means of being moved back to the battle.

We could envisage even what would have happened if Britain had been invaded, the fleet off to Canada or Carribean or other empire area...Certain troops overseas to carry on as the Free British... Do you honestly think that after a time or given the choice that Britians servicemen the majority maybe navy given the choice to fight on oversees for an unknown maybe endless period would have reacted any differently?

Ho many would have opted to return home to an occupied land as did the French.

There were enough better reds than dead in the cold war years of 70s and 80s in this country and in 1940 Britain had its own who would have collaborated and enforced a vichy Midlands, Scotland/Wales if asked. We were not as far down the road as the French politcally on its knees in the inter war years, but how can you be sure there would have not been a vichy setup in Britian, the whole country was not standing ready with pitchforks and US rifles ready to die and bleed with Winston at 10 Downing st.

Britain had seen its Mosley blackshirts before during and after the war who would have had no qualms in the main with any such setup, and there were many politicians of the time that could have worked with a Nazi occupation force in good faith.

Not all Frenchmen can be tainted with our present day views of the French at the time. Otherwise there would have not been a Free French, A certain man with a moustache, or a Maquis.

The French fought well at Lille covering a Brtishi withdrawal, not for the British I know but for themselves. They refused to be evacuated and fought until they could fight no more.

If we look at Frances failure we should also look at ourselves and the arguing of a British feild force for France that even up to the near start of World war 2 we were not committed to sending a force of more than 2 divisions to any Euorpean mainland war.

The view across the channel in our direction must have been somewhat sceptical in those years too.

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

I have read so much about the 82nd Airborne, inwhich my father served (504th), I'd probibly choose to jump into Normandy near Ste Mere Eglise on D-Day! Dad didn't jump until Nijmegen, but with so many great movies about D-Day, what the heck!

[ 14. January 2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]

Seawolf, That's an interesting piece of info you let slip there! Your father was with 504 PIR in Nijmegen!?

I live in Amsterdam and it was the 82nd that really got me into researching WW2 in the first place. I am fortunate to have met and corresponded with many 82nd veterans.

Do you care to share something about your dad's experiences? Have you any idea what unit within the 504 he was in? Specially interested if he was part of the Waal river crossing....

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

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Stevin
Thanks for your concern. My Dad never talked about the war unless I pulled it out of him. He was to young for D-Day but jumped into Nejmegen, fought in the battle of the bulge around St. Vith, and jumped in Operation Varsity over the Rhine. I asked him once if he ever killed any Germans, and he looked away and sheepishly said, "yes". He told me that he had many friends killed by the Wehrmache, but he also respected the German soldier very much (more than I do). He hated the snow after the Belgium winter and the Battle of the Bulge. I only know that it was the 504th, but I'm trying to find out which battlion, company, platoon.

Thanks for that Seawolf. I appreciate it.

Have you ever tried getting in touch with the 82nd Airborne associations? Will sent you an e-mail/PM. Maybe I might be able to help find things out, if you want to. Have quite some data on the 82nd.

[ 15. January 2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

(banner by Otto)
www.basher82.nl

Urqh

I agree with much of what you say, but be very careful about things like the French Resistance, which is far more myth than reality. My main beef with the French is not their 1940 collapse but their postwar efforts to cover up the crimes of Vichy and downgrade the numbers of people who supported it. Think of all the crimes committed, the rabid anti-semitism and political corruption.
I know that a lot of French units fought well, particularly the Division around Dunkirk which was led by a real fire-eater (whose name escapes me).

However, the opinion that France was wise and knew what was coming, that we should have kept the Germans downtrodden and that the foresight of France was nullified by perfidious Albion is a little irritating.

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

I have 2 choises:

#1. 1st RCAF fighter squadron. Be the first RCAF division to reach Europe, fight in the Battle of Britain, bomb Germany, fight on Juno Beach from above, then fight tell the end of the war. And fly the Hawker Huricane and the XII Spitfire.

#2. Canadian 1st army, 2nd division, 5th brigade, 1st battalion: Calgary Highlanders, be in Britain in 1940, then fight in possibly Dieppe (although that was more of a slaughtering fest) then fight from Juno Beach through Holland and across the Rhine.

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Go-Flames-Go

I would definatly serve in the Mighty 8th Air Force. Flying a P-51D, escorting B-17's and B-24's.

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It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it.
--General Douglas MacArthur

which fighter group and why ? I'm curious.......how about the 9ths 354th fg the top scoring fighter group in the ETO !

~E

I can not help but find this fanticizing war/combat rather "unsettling." It was, without a doubt, an obligation of patriotism to have "signed up" durring WW2. BUT, with any luck, we can live out the rest of our lives without having to face such another horrible world conflict.

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Just to come up with some facts about the 21. Panzerdivision:

Created in action on August 1st 1941 from 5. Leichtedivision plus 5. Panzerregiment and other elements from 3. Panzerdivision. In battle in North Africa since February 1941 as part of the German Afrika Korps against Commonwealth troops(1941-1942). Stronly damaged at Alam Halfa and El Alamein (July-November 1942). It covered the withdraw of the Axis Forces to Libya and Tunisia and was practically annihilated. The division surrendered at Tunisia in May 1943.

It was reformed in France in July 1943 and had occupation duties until June 1944 when was heavily engaged fighting around Caën in Normandy. Then it withdrew fighting to Germany, fighting at the Sarre and Northern Alsace. It was then refited and reequipped. On February 1945 it started fighting at the Eastern Front defending Lauban, Görtlitz and Cottbus. Annihilated by the Soviets on April.

Units in 1942:

5. Panzerregiment
47. Panzergrenadierregiment
104. Panzergrenadierregiment
155. Panzerartillerieregiment


Units in 1944:

22. Panzerregiment
125. Panzergrenadierregiment
192. Panzergrenadierregiment
155. Panzerartillerieregiment
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