Since the HJ was taught to follow not lead what would have happned if germany won the war? Some German veterans have said they couldn't beleive how low their knowledge of such subjects of math and science were on comparison to other students after the war. Some even found themselves in class rooms with kids half their age taking math classes. They were not taught to think and would not need advanced skills in those topics to follow. The question is what would have happened after all the leaders had passed away. Where would effective leaders for the SS be found? Who would teach? Who would command?

William P.

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Gott mit Uns!
Und
Mien Ehre heißt Treue!

"Strategy is the art of making use of time and space. I am less chary of the latter than of the former. Space we can recouver, lost time never."
-Napoleon

"We cannot change politics; we must do our duty silently.
-General Werner Von Fritsch

"Those 16 year old assholes commanded their Regiments in Big shining Mercedes cars as though they were Corps Commanders."
-Erwin Rommel on the Hitler Youth

Welcome to the forum William P.

Im not sure. Certainly the HJ wouldnt make effective leaders in the long run. I suppose the SS would have to find better leaders among those who volunteered but were not HJ.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

Thanks for your welcome.

This poses an interesting question though. Since hitler did have a phobia of intelectuals who could pose a threat of overthrowing him you can probably suppose he would have instituted this kind of education in all schools eventualy. Who knows what would have happened then.

Also where do you suppose other leaders might be had?

__________________
Gott mit Uns!
Und
Mien Ehre heißt Treue!

"Strategy is the art of making use of time and space. I am less chary of the latter than of the former. Space we can recouver, lost time never."
-Napoleon

"We cannot change politics; we must do our duty silently.
-General Werner Von Fritsch

"Those 16 year old assholes commanded their Regiments in Big shining Mercedes cars as though they were Corps Commanders."
-Erwin Rommel on the Hitler Youth

Hi Will.

I think that had Germany won the war, then these H.J. would have then been able to restart their education and then advance. Also, many H.J were already with most or all of their education completed, plus you have to remember that H.J Leaders were just H.J who have been at the game longer--were still very young, but "knew what time it was" if you know what I mean?

I knew a man who was a H.J. Leader--his name was Hans Goebeler--a crewman on the famous U 505. He was already highly educated and is part of the reason he was promoted to H.J Leader. When the war broke out--he volunteered for service with the military and was then sent to train as a member of the Kriegsmarine.

I dont know much of what he did after the war until the 1970's when he started his own mailing business. He used to live here in CC, TX, but retired to Florida a few years before he passed away. I talked with him on the phone several times--he was a very nice person to know. One of his best friends is none other then Erich Topp. His very best friend had been in the Waffen SS, was an SS Para in SS Btn 500 and then served for several years in the Frainch Forign Legion. This man also lived and retired in Florida and sadly, he too passed away the same year as Hans Goebeler. Another thing on him is he was the man that the book: "Devils Guard" by: (George Robert Alford)was written about.

I talked with him on the phone a few timew too, and we were getting ready to "make a deal" when he passed away. I was going to have the priveledge of interviewing him at his home.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Good point. I suppose education as a whole would decline in Germany. I would hope Hitler would either a) change his mind or b)die. I think he would opt for option a, because where would scientists, generals, and other needed intellectuals come from? Germany would be in quite the mess under the Nazi education system, like Europe in the middle ages.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

Some very good. points thank you.

Still for that point of lack of education I'm glad the war didn't turn out with hitler prevailing.

__________________
Gott mit Uns!
Und
Mien Ehre heißt Treue!

"Strategy is the art of making use of time and space. I am less chary of the latter than of the former. Space we can recouver, lost time never."
-Napoleon

"We cannot change politics; we must do our duty silently.
-General Werner Von Fritsch

"Those 16 year old assholes commanded their Regiments in Big shining Mercedes cars as though they were Corps Commanders."
-Erwin Rommel on the Hitler Youth

With Hitlerjugend troops at the fore-Nazism wouldv'e been unstoppable. Those guys were fanatics...

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"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

Actually this is an interesting idea. To get an idea you'll haver to face the consequences:

World population divided in categories:

1) German, ayran nazis, the "superhumans": all the power, all the wealth, their word counts.

2) Other Germans and the "germanian" people of other countries like (France, England, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, some Canadians and White Americans)

3) Other fascists, like Italians, Romanians, Hungars etc., depending on how much class 1) defines them as being "worth to be a national socialist".

3) The Japanese as a kind of "master of slaves"

4) The vast majority of "slaves": Slavic people out side the USSR, negros, Arabs, Chinese, Indians etc.

5) useful animals like Cows, pigs etc.

5a) On the same level: Russian slaves and Asiats. Up here there is the tendency to get rid of that people.

6) Catholics religion, Communists, Democrats, Plutocrats, anyone in opposition to the Nazi rule: to be exterminated either the idea or the carriers physically.

7.) mentally ill, and handicapped = to be exterminated physically

8.) Jews and half-Jews: already physically exterminated

The few "superior" (1-3) would have the pleasure to learn "Ayran" physics and Math (I wonder how math and physics can be "Ayran": 1 + 1 is what the Führer says??). The others have to learn to read traffic signs, write thier name and count to 100. Forget freedom of speech, religion, press, choice of job, etc.

Basically only a "german" ideas or inventions would be considerered as being "Good": Say goodbye to Rock'n'Roll, private TV-Stations and newspapers, rationalization, Capitalism, free trade and markets, globalization, etc.

Basically the same step back as the Dark Ages in 1200 were compared to the Roman Empire. Or a World-wide North Korea with a gazillion of exterminated people and races.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Theres a Rutger Hauer movie out called" Fatherland--that is kinda like what this topic is on.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

this is all very interesting. I would suppose that after the war those who hitler could trust would get a highter education

__________________
Gott mit Uns!
Und
Mien Ehre heißt Treue!

"Strategy is the art of making use of time and space. I am less chary of the latter than of the former. Space we can recouver, lost time never."
-Napoleon

"We cannot change politics; we must do our duty silently.
-General Werner Von Fritsch

"Those 16 year old assholes commanded their Regiments in Big shining Mercedes cars as though they were Corps Commanders."
-Erwin Rommel on the Hitler Youth

Well, I think the culture would have been stopped in some way. There would have prevailed Wagner and Beethoven and no Elvis or the Beatles around... (That doesn't sound too harsh to me) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Catholics in 6th place? Yeah... I think marshall Rommel, Halder, all the Austrians and even the Führer would fit into this kind of human as well as 20 million German superhumans... Yeah...

Ha! Then say goodbye to all the things that provoke our modern decadence and self-morale-destruction!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Ah yes, and remember, Under the Nazis (if they won) there would be no personal computers, why would you need one, it would not be in the Party rules. AND NO INTERNET !!!! Think about it, no WW2 Forums, no WW2 databases, all history re-written, no truth, no freedom, no life.

Thank God they lost.

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"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
- Thomas Watson (1874-1956), Chairman of IBM, 1943

"The most decisive blow mankind had suffered was Christianity; Bolshevism in the unmarried son of Christianity; both are fiends of Jewism."
Hitler on July 11 ,1941

"The war will end, and I will see my last lifetask to solve the Church problem. Only after that the German Nation will be secure."
Hitler to Ribbentrop, Goebbels, Terboven and Bouhler on Dec. 13, 1941

"National Socialism and clerical ideologies are incompatible. As much as the harmful influence of Astrologists, soothsayers and other liars has to be eliminated, as much the influence of the Churches needs to be completely eliminated ."
Secret memo by Martin Borman, dated June 6, 1941

"Every nation has the Clerics they deserve. I cannot chance that now, that' s why I am praising them. But I will later fight this fight of the German history once and for all . This will hurt some, but but I will let those Clerics feel the power of the state, they will wonder! Right now I'm just watching them. If I think that they would become dangerous, I will shoot them. This reptile arises again and again, when the governmental power becomes weak. That's why we have to crunch it."
Hitler to Speer and General Reinicke on Aug. 11 1942

"The [Catholic] Orders are the militant branch of the Catholic Church. They must therefor be pushed away, encicled and finally exterminated."
Secret Order of the SD dated Feb 15, 1938

"Christanity is the most worse fallback mankind had ever suffered. The Jew [=Jesus, A.W.] pushed back mankind for more than one and a half thousand years."
Hitler on Feb. 20, 1942

"The most biggest Cancer are the Priests of both churches! I can't give you the answer [what will happen to them, A.W.] right now, but everything will be noticed in my mental diary. The time will come when I will settle the accounts with them, with short shrift" (...) There's no way around to proceed with a final solution. (...) As like the witch hysteria was removed, as like this hysteria (= Religion, A.W.) have to be removed. But we need a solid fundament to do this"
Hitler to Speer and Himmler on February 8, 1942

I think that should do. But I'm sure that Rommel would have saved Christianity.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Maybe Von Schirach would have become the new Furher in stead of Hitler.

As for the Hitlerjugend istelf (the members: the youth), they would have become soldiers to fight local battles, e.g.: when there were partisans stil fighting, ...

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Let's not forget that it was not just the Hitler Youth we are talking about. The organization was more complicated than this. There were the Adolf Hitler schools whose pupils were being groomed as future leaders of a National Socialist Germany. Here is were the focus on sciences and intellectual courses would be administered. The rest, would have gone into the armed forces or labor forces so the future leadership would not be as dumb and naive as what we would think them to be.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Very good posts AndyW, I agree with your findings totally and utterly. Especially liked the "useful animals" part.

Developing on that sort of cynism, as some people know, the Nazis were the first (were they really??) government to institute environmental protection laws and regulations. Would they have made zoos for Catholics, Jews etc? Just so the Aryans can see what they were like?

Any Nazi victory not followed by a speedy reform of the Nazi movement and party ends automatically in Dark Age, IMHO.

I always try to ask myself whether I would have survived an era or episode. I think my chance of surviving Stalin's purges would be about 1%. My chance of surviving under Hitler 1933-1945 would be about 50%. My chance of survival under Hitler for twenty more years would be close to nil.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

What an idiotic thought...

Hitler used the word: "God" very oftenly in his speeches. And by the way, he used to be a singing kid in the children's choir in Braunau. And if he is speaking about christianity (which actually means EVERYBODY who believe in Jesus Christ: catholics, lutherans, anglicans, ortodox christians and even Jeovah's witnesses!) he is referring to the Roman catholic church's power: the Vatican, the bishops, archbishops, etc. Not to the people who were catholic. Then, 20.000.000 Germans and 4.000.000 Austrians would have perished in Auschwitz too... killed by who? The Prussian lutherans are also Christians...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I know, Friedrich, this is what comes of quoting people out of context. Neonazis and the radical anti-Nazis are both very good at it because their purposes are VERY idealised. For example if somebody wants to prove that the Nazis were intolerant, there's an excellent speech they can quote from Hitler where he says: "Wir sind intolerant!" and leave it at that. Never mind about the context.

Hitler was very probably anti-christian, but what you must never forget was that he was quite a good politician. He could never make a public speech damning christianity without losing public support. Ultimately a lot of it.

And what's more, large parts of the protestand and catholic churches cooperated with the Nazis quite well. What AndyW is posting does sound a bit apologetic in this direction, though I think this is not what he intends.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

BTW - if you want harder proof that speeches you can take a look at the closures of monasteries, church-run schools and the confiscation of property from clerical institutions and monasteries. That happened a LOT.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

I think that the various quotes I posted are enough to make clear that the Churches were the next on Hitler's list after the war. There are many more to the same effect, but I have to tranlate all that crap, and I think those few will supoort my point unless "General der Infanterie Friedrich H" posts facts pointing to the contrary.

Of course he wouldn't exterminate every single person who was babtized, but the Christian Church as an Organisation and her representants (priests, openly confessing etc.). Just the way the Communist moevement did it. The difference between the extermination of Christianity and the Jews is that the Jews were doomed for extermination by their birth, while Christians would have had the given the chance to deny thier religious belive and become a "good" National Socialist.

There is no single reason to NOT believe in Hitler's own words. Please compare what he said about the Jews and her fate in 1939 or earleor with the events of 1941 ff.

And of course "the" Church isn't a victim nor a perpetrator, but both. Some priests were very descent and brave men, some were nazis with robes. The Church's role in the Holocaust isn't really glorious.

Cheers,

[ 05. November 2002, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

You and your 'facts'...

You are backing me up in what I said. Hitler didn't like the churches to controll the masses. Hitler was not going to bear that other people such as priests could have any influence in the German people, so I can believ he was going to eliminate that. But he WAS NOT to kill every bloody catholic or Christian in Germany. I mean, he would have had to kill himself too... In many of his speeches he used the word "Lord" or "God".
And we cannot rely on Hitler's words. I mean, he told Mr. Chamberlain and made a public later saying that Germany did not want to claim more territories after Czechoslovakia...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

The church in Germany and nazi occupied Europe would have faced the same fate as the Church in the Communist Eastern Bloc did. If you believe Hitler's OWN WORDS they would've faced even a worse treatment, such as physical extermination of the mean carrier and representants of that Church (e.g. priests and publicy confessing).

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I mean, he would have had to kill himself too... In many of his speeches he used the word "Lord" or "God".

Are you seriously suggesting that Herr Adolf Hitler was a confessing Christ or sharing the religious believes of any of the two great Churches?

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