Pearl Harbor never happens. When does USA decide its time to get active and fight Germany and/or Japan?

How does FDR justify a declaration of war to an isolationist people?

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

In fact Hitler would have the right to declare war on the US in 1940, because FDR helped Brittain. Although the US said that they were neutral.

But with no Pearl Harbor FDR would have no reason to fight Germany and/or Japan.

If the Philipines would have been attacked, then they would have declared war on Japan. Then Germany would have delcared war on the US, because of the Axis Pact.

So in december 1941 the US would be in war with the Axis.

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Yes, I think Albert is right there. Even if Japan did not attack Pearl Harbor, she was still heading for South East Asia. As soon as she got too close to the Phillipines, and the other US interests in the region, the US would have declared war. And then Germany would have declared war on the US as she did after Pearl, and in that way not much would have changed. Except that the US would have had a complete fleet to play with, instead of one that was damaged at Pearl Harbor, so the Pacific War would have been a lot shorter. Japan would not have had the freedom to move her transports etc. around with the US Pacific Fleet still intact. That's why they had to attack Pearl Harbor first.

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"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."
Admiral Yamamoto in an interview with Shigeharu Matsumoto,
a member of the Japanese Cabinet, 1940

I disagree here Albert. Mid 41 perhaps, but not 40.

I don't think Grmany would have declared war but he pressure by the US Navy on the German U-Boats would, i feel, have lead to an incident that would have given FDR the excuse he needs.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

And it did. But When Jost Metzler with the U69, sunk the Robin Moor, an American freigther shipping "arms and ammo" for the N-African front, off the coast of Africa, the US didn't declare war on Germany...This was FDR's chance, yet he didn't take it...

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

I agree with Bish. Germany would not have declared war on the US. Hitler may have disliked what the US was doing and made threats but in reality would not declare war because of it. He declared war after Pearl Harbor because of the pact with Japan and his hope that because of this show of support, Japan would reciprocate and declare war on Russia.

I think that the US would have ended up in the war anyway because of the Phillipines. Japan could not afford to have a strong naval presence in it's frontyard even if it was a neutral country.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Look at my words: "In fact Hitler would have the right to declare war on the US ..."

I didn't say he would, but due to the pact he would have the right.

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Only if Japan was at war with the US. You have even stated if Japan was to invade the Phillipines, the turn out would be the same and this I agree with. But, if Japan did not invade the Phillipines, then Germany would not declare even if it had a right to.

[ 04. November 2002, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: PzJgr ]

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

I agree. Hitler would not want to get involved with the USA over Britain. Besides, U boats were already clashing with the US navy anyway, in a form of undeclared war.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

Which came one month after FDRs extension of the Pan American security zone to cover two thirds of the Atlantic, and his threat to all German and Italian vessels. Essenially,claiming the Atlantic for ritain and her Allies, while trying to exclude the Axis Powers.

But FDR needed more thathe snking of one American ship nto convince the people it was right to go to war with Germany. Smething he was wrking on when Pearl Harbour was attacked.

According to FDR, the ship was on route to South Africa, an Ally of Britain, and therefore an enemy of Germany.

[ 04. November 2002, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Bish OBE ]

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

So FDR shrugged it off waiting for the right time...interesting.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

Well, would not say he shrugged it off. But it would take more than this to convince the people, thats my opinion anyway.

Here is his reaction to the incident

http://www.usmm.org/fdr/robinmoor.html

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Wow. Interesting stuff.
Thx Bish.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

No, I'm afraid you are all mistaken here!

The Tripartiate Pact signed in September 1940 between Germany, Italy and Japan was a DEFENSIVE alliance, not an offensive one!

Germany and Italy were obliged to come to Japan's aid if, and only if, Japan was ATTACKED BY either the USA or the USSR, and vice versa for Germany.

The Pact did NOT state that Germany and Italy had to support Japan if Japan HERSELF ATTACKED the USA or the USSR, or vice versa for Germany.

This was why Japan did not declare war on the USSR when Germany invaded it in 1941 - she didn't have to, because Germany was the aggressor!

Likewise, Hitler was in no way OBLIGED to declare war on the USA after Pearl Harbor - he did it because he WANTED to, for his own manic reasons! And Il Duce just followed suit out of misguided loyalty to Hitler.

Interesting point. But why would Hitler want to go to war with USA and not have Japan agree to attack USSR? There isnt any bonus to being at war with yet someone else.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

I guess he was hoping that Japan would reply in kind and attack Russia. Though i don't know how feasable this would have been for Japan.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Good link on the Robin Moor, Bish... Print out has been filed...

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

Under the US Constitution, Congress, not the President, has the authority to declare war. That is why FDR went to Congress on December 8th and asked for a declaration of war against Japan.

FDR, as Commander-in-Chief, did have the authority to order the US Navy into what was essentially an undeclared naval war with Germany. If Hitler had declared war on the US prior to December 7th, he would have made FDR's day (to borrow a phrase used by a later President).

FDR was very keen to enter the war in Europe but the US isolationist movement, led in part by the pro-German Charles Lindbergh and the pro-Nazi German American Bund, had the strength in Congress to block a declaration of war prior to December 7th.

Regarding US neutrality prior to Pearl Harbor ...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/docs/m33/m33c4.html

American Neutrality in the 20th Century: Backing into War

"... In May 1940, when German victory on the Continent of Europe seemed almost certain, Prime Minister Churchill appealed to President Roosevelt, saying 'You should proclaim non-belligerency, which would mean that you would help us with everything short of actually engaging armed forces.' While 'non-belligerency' had no legal definition, it certainly enjoyed a great deal of practice. Of course, practice without an intention to comply with the law is insufficient to produce law.

The United States never formally declared any departure from neutrality, but U.S. actions varied widely from the legal obligations of an impartial neutral. While never engaged at a level of intensity comparable to the combat ashore in Europe or Asia, the United States behaved in a clearly unneutral manner. In fact, long before the attack on Pearl Harbor, the U.S. Navy was essentially at war with Germany in the Atlantic. Because Germany could not afford to bring the United States fully into the war the U.S. transgressions were met with some restraint. So while asserting de jure neutrality, the United States exercised de facto belligerence, or better put--courtesy of Germany, ex gratia non-belligerence. Mr. Churchill's request was answered with definitive actions but lacked the nicety of a declaration (which would have been politically inexpedient for President Roosevelt).

Other statesmen were not so constrained in their treatment of the law in public pronouncements. After the fall of France on 17 June 1940, Italy, which had been 'non-belligerent,' entered the war, and Spain became a 'non-belligerent,' eschewing the impartiality of a neutral. ..."

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"The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here." - Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 19, 1863
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"The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past." - William Faulkner

Hitler's declaration of war on the USA was his idea and his alone. He did not discuss it with any other Nazi leader beforehand. He simply decided, on his own, that this was what he wanted to do, and ordered it done. It made no sense from a military point of view, it was a purely political decision.

In the book 'The Meaning of Hitler', it was comprehensively explained that this was the point that Hitler realised intuitively that he couldn't win the war. His final attack on Moscow had ground to a halt a few days previously. He therefore decided that he would completely abandon all his war aims, and focus on exterminating the Jews instead. From that point, the war effort's only purpose as far as Hitler was concerned was to buy time to complete the Final Solution, but he kept this secret from everyone except himself.

The verbal Fuhrer Order for the Final Solution was issued to Himmler on 12 December 1941 - only a few days after Hitler declared war on America!

Look at this: The Final Solution

People describe Hitler as a megolomaniac - he wasn't. He was a psychopathic mass-murderer, and the most 'successful' one in all history. And his victims include the German people themselves.

Since he couldn't win the greatest victory in history, Hitler decided that he would have the most catastrophic defeat instead - to punish the German people for being too weak to win his war for him. This was his real reason for declaring war on America!

Hitler expressed sorrow for all the German soldiers that died at Stalingrad - but in truth he wasn't sorry for them at all - he was just worried that the Eastern Front would collapse before the extermination of the Jews was complete.

He didn't give a damn about Germany, or even his own life - the only thing that he ever cared about was wiping out the Jews.

I've been pondering the question of why Hitler delared war on America when he did for a few days. Until recently, i believed he was simply fulfully his part of the Axis pact. Bt then i read that his was not he case,and von madre it clearer. But von, if Hitler keeped this secret to himself, how does the author know. And though this may be part of it, i feel its all to easy to put every decision that Hitler made down to him being sadistic mass murderer.

despite the requests of Dornitz ad Raeder to untie the hands of he U-Boats so they could protect themselves from US attacks, Hitler refused, stateing that he did not want the US invlved until Russia had been dealt with. He even went so far as to rder the U-Boats not to attack ertaitypes of warship for the risk that they might attack a US ship simlar to the type the US had supplied to Britain. Even when faced with a ship class that could be attacked, the U-Boat commander had to confirm is nationality. This, i believe goes far beyond what should have been exected of the Germans, given the provcation they faced.

So why the sudden u-turn.

Was it so sudden?

It was 5 days between the Japanese attack, and Hitles decleration. It took Britain and France just 2 days in 39, and this only becasue we gave an ultimatum. I think Hitler must have seriously considered is options. The fact that he made a mistake is plain to see, with hindsight. But i don't believe it makes him mad. Trusting, possible, over confident, definatly. But he was not the first, or last, leader to lead his country to war in the belief that victory was a certainty.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

But why even want a victory over the United States? Hitler was concerned primarily with lebensraum in the east, and the USA was only a nuisance keeping a power alive that didnt offer any seriouis threat.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

True, but what was the option, ignore Britain. Germany still needed imports.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

But how does going to war with the usa help Germanys import problems?

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin