Well, there you go. Eric Brown rated the D-9 & 14 Spit a tie as best prop job of ww2. The D-9 was much quieter than the A series, slightly better turn, climb rate 4300 ft per min again , better than a seies 3100 or so ft per min. Much better dive & did not bleed off speed in high speed turns like A series. In short, a complete improvement over its radial predessor. top speed 426, but 440 on boost. & boost tank was much larger than 109 tank. good for somewhere between 20-30 min. It also neede no trim tabs whatsoever as it flew so well. Hope I didn't bore you with all that.

don't think he tried his hands and feet in a Ta 152 though.........

Brown said the 152 wingspan was too wide & it had poor roll & poor dive. Very good at high atltitude, outturned a Tempest with ease. But he met with Proffessor Tank after the war & they both agreed the D-9 was the best. They also agreed that Tank should have concentrated on upgrading the D-9 instead.

Erich, if you can find a copy of Captain Eric Brown's 'Wings Of The Luftwaffe' ( Airlife, 1987 and reprints ) you will find a very detailed first-hand description of his flights in a Ta152H-1 from Farnborough.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

that would make sense Martin. I would of been most interested of his impressions if he would have flown in combat instead of his test rides. We have a nice personal exerpt from him in our book as we have written him about his thoughts in 1945 after the capture of the last Me 262B-1a/U1's of 10./NJG 11 at Schleswig. fun to get his approach

Erich ~

Taking into account that Friedrich is quite illiterate in these matters... how about Spitfires and Mustangs been compared to Me-109Ks in equal conditions?

At least for what I've read, on paper the K version can match the Mustang in speed, manœuvrability, altitude and even has superior weaponry...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Eric, how did you get an address for Eric Brown? I've been trying to reach him as there is a typo in his book "duels in the sky" where it says the D-9 could climb 6200 ft per min. Regarding the K model 109, I feel the same. Would love to see a fly off between a K & a Mustang. It was faster below 15.000 ft than the Mustang, had a small turn advantage. Mustang probably had better roll, unless the K had field mod flettner airalon tabs. Buligen had this to say; the 190 was better, however I did get a lightweight 109 at the end of the war & it flew wonderfully, end quote. Its fuselage was completely redesigned & lightened. I read in a book yesterday that it actually weighed less that a G-2.

I'm not so good about the later types of Bf109. The Spitfire MkIX was very close to the 109G, the Griffon-engined MkXIV could definitely outperform the G , and I believe the K was a development of the G. I had thought that by the latter part of the war, the Fw190 was the fighter to match and exceed the Allied fighters, but I'd like to read the comments of those who are more expert in this field than me.....

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Its hard to get data on the K. it had a climb rate of 4850 ft per min & top speed 452 on boost. The new chin scoop gave it a similiar high altitude performance to the Mustang, however because of its lightweight, it tended to waffle at high altitude. The redesigned higher tail probably gave it better directional stability,( a guess ),My question is regarding turn. If it weighed less, it should be more responsive in the turn. Can't find hard data on that though.

But wasn't the G version too heavy and therefore, less manœuvrable because of its heavy weaponry? Within its main advantage came its main flaw…



I know it'd be an extreme, but what about Lt. Erich Hartmann shooting down four (?) Mustangs with his 109 over Romania in one day?

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

in reality Eric Brown got ahold of us. When he found out through the long change of contacts that we have he concluded we had a acouple of pics of him in the cockpit of a Me 262B and he was most interested in the German Luftwaffe gents standing and kneeling around him picking his brain on his thoughts of the Schwalbe.

incidently in our book we will be covering at some detail the Bf 109G-6/AS which was the fastest G-6 variant equipped with MW boost. In some earlier postings two years ago I do think that I covered some sort of mph stats with 10./JG 300 that were performed against the LNSF mossies towards Berlin in the fall of 44. The sppeds bear close resemblance to what the K could perform

E ~

Well Eric, I should like to have that book. Yes Frederich, the G was chin heavy. The wood tail actually weighed more than the metal one. Whether this was intentional To provide a counter balance I do not know. Hartmann had this to say; any less maneuverability was more than offset by the heavier firepower, you had to get close, but the 30 mm cannon was devastating. I've just read a Nowarra book where the weights of various 109's was listed in back. 2346 for the K & 2700 for the G-6. I went to go buy it, & had the guy hold it for me at the counter, then he sold it by mistake. but nonetheless the lightweightness of the K is an interesting factiod.

Chrome :

according to a friend who knows a bit about the K variant the wooden tail was derived as a last resort due to the limited supplies of raw aluminum for the make up of the a/c fuselage and in fact more than the tail was made up of wood during those last months that the Luftwaffe could fly.
If Otto will allow I will post more information on our book as it comes closer to the illusive publishing date.............man I hope it will be next year !!

as Hartmann rightly said the Mk 108 3cm was a nasty weapon from close range. One round alone of the Minen Geschoss could blow an Allied fighter fuselage in half. 3-4 of the M rounds could take out a Allied heavy bomber by hitting the inboard engines and the wing supported fram-work. have some cine-films that are just plain ugly in the photographic description of "tearing a bomber apart"

Erich ♪

Another interesting story I've just read was that a mock dogfight between a D-13, ( minus armament & MW 50 boost ),& a Tempest took place after the war. A Canadian against a German. The Tempest had a small low altitude speed advantage which quickly disapeared as they gained altitude. The D-13 had no difficulty gaining altitude & sucessfully engaging the Tempest in a turning dogfight. It was speculated that the D-13 with MW 50 boost would outrun the Tempest at all altitudes. I was surprised.

The D-9 did not get MW 50 boost until Dec 44 when 213 A-2 motor was installed. This would explain disparities in speed comparisons between D-9's & Mustangs.

I believe that this is the incident of a captured JG 26 machine flown by an ex-JG 51 ace. D-13 or D-9 Chrome ?

In any case reading about JG 301's D-9's in II./JG 301 always gave the appearance that the D-9 was not on par with the US P-51 at any altitude nor speed. One reason why the unit insisted it attain the Ta 152 in it's scant inventory........though only III./JG 301 flew it for a short time and then all Ta's went over to Stab./JG 301. Pretty silly to me to have the pilots revert back to the short nosed A-8 in the spring of 45 but that is exactly what happened.

Well I'll read up on jg 301. I have read instances of D-9's outrunning Mustangs, but also of Mustangs running down D-9's. many factors can play in to these encounters, how much gas a plane has got in tanks, condition of motor, whether the 9 had boost or not etc. The story about the dogfight was in a book I glanced through, D9 in profile I think it was called. I forget the pilots name. One Mustang pilot remarked; we had a healthy respect for the longnose as it could outrun us. As far as I know,( & this is not confirmed ), only 17 D-13's entered service. Priller got one. One can't help but wonder how many could have been cranked out if 152 was not built? If a few hundred had been built, we might have a clear winner for best prop job of the war contest. Also wonder if leading edge slots would have solved flick over problem for 190 & occasional violent spins. Also to give it a slightly better turn. The D series did have a wider tail for directional stability. I wonder if it also helped cure the above probs. I should've gone to college & became & engineer, then maybe I could figure these things out.

A couple of not too well known points about 109. The wing scoops worked much the same as the Mustang scoop did, separating dirty boundary layer, ( whatever that means ), & exiting leftover air. Not a great explanation, but I think you can get the jest. The 109 was always accused of high wind drag, well take a look at the monstous boxes below a Spit wing. You tell me which one had more wind drag. Also the Mustang D experienced serious vibration in dive speeds over 505 mph, the 109 & 190 in contrast did not. all for now have good weekend all. must go, Headed to see chronicles of Riddick.

Great thread: The morale value of the Spitfire may have been even more important than anything, though this depended on its performance etc. Spitfires did demonstrate that the Germans could be matched, that British technology could be as good if not better in 1940 at a time when many thought Britain didn't have a chance to wn the war. All the other services also had important weapons, but the Spitfire could be observed by the British populace (and others) defending the country and winning, and causing the German air-force morale to experience a shock - they could be beaten.

Have a few ideas on improving the Spit. wing root air scoops like Yak 3 & Corsair had, wider landing gear, & bringing 20 mm cannon near wing root for better roll rate. Also wonder if the Merlin could have been flipped upsidown like 109 & guns put on hood. The 109 certainly could have had a few improvements. One Messerscmidt engineer was asked; why the landing gear was not changed, his reply was, You have no idea what it was like to work for Professor Messerschmidt. I think he was perhaps 80% genius & 20% arrogant idiot. Have not met him of course, just a guess. One can't help but wonder how much better the 109 could've been with wide landing gear, wing root guns, a redesigned front canopy piece. Maybe spring tab airalons & Hydraulic boosted controls. I'm not an engineer, but would love to hear from some feedback from y'all engineers or not.

Wat if the the 109 could be fitted with a Merlin?

..and then you've got a Buchon !

http://www.flyvintage.com/images/837/

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Exactly. The Hispano Ha-1112-M-1-L. It was an Me-109G-2 airframe using a RR Merlin 500-45 engine built in Spain after the war.
Actually, it was built in a number of models including:
The first model used the Hispano-Suiza HS 12-Z-89 engine. 25 were built to this design.
The next batches were Merlin powered and came in several models:
HA-1109J-1-L, HA-1109K-1-L, K-2-L and, K-3-L. All were designated C4J by the Spanish Air Force. Production ran from early 1946 to 1958.

Let's see: Wing root radiators would have required