Of these 3 Islands-island chain, which one would have been easiest to take, & most valuable strategically?

The Azores would have been a huge strategic advantage for who ever had them. Situated in the southern sector of the north Atlantic, the chain sits astride a main shipping route from NYC to Gibraltar. If the Allies had been able to base long range bombers and destroyers out of the Azores, it would have put a severe dent in Admiral Doenitz U-boat operations in the Atlantic. Also it might have been close enough to Morocco to provide airbases for bombers during Operation Torch (did it?). For the Germans, the Azores would have been an ideal place for U-boat pens, landing strips for Fw200 Condor convoy spotting planes and many other functions because of some of the reasons listed above.

So why didn't either side take them? Because they belonged to Portugal, a neutral. Roosevelt and Churchill did consider landing troops there, but they didn't want to upset the Portuguese so much they joined the Axis. Hitler felt likewise. Hope I answered your question.

__________________
"That's FUBIJAR."
(Fu--ed Up, But I'm Just a Reservist... )

Yes. Hitler was advised that Azores would be hard to hold because of size of British navy, but an interesting piece of geography nonetheless.

They did. Portugal allowed the UK to setup a number of bases, the duly negotiated agreement was implemented in Oct.43. Sometime in 1944 a similar agreement also allowed the US basing rights as well. This allowed the Allies to close the Mid-Atlantic Gap, a region outside effective land-based air cover, and also better control of the Bay of Biscay exits.

By 1943 Portugal knew well enough which side of the bread was buttered, and besides from Germany nothing other than hot air had come, so it was an easy decision.

__________________

The key word here is take. Ancient fire is correct on that point. Noone took it by force, As you mentioned Rodina, an agreement was worked out in 43. Control of Portugal itself might've been a good idea before an attempt on Azores to shorten transport & air routes. Madagascar could possibly have been taken by Japan, which would have given the German raiding effort a boost & traffic to suez would have an extra threat. Britain took Madagascar from Vichy french. With additioinal Japanese troops, it would have been tougher to take back. Not as valuable as Azores agreed.

Of the three only the Azores had any strategic value in WW 2. Madagascar was taken by the British fairly early on after the fall of France and never really saw any action after that.
As for the Azores, for the Germans taking it at any time was essentially a fantasy. They lacked the means to really take it to begin with, then hold it and, maintain supply to it if somehow they managed to actually take it.
Early in the war it would have been valuable in the war in the Atlantic as a base for maritime patrol aircraft. By 1943 it was becoming less valuable as escort carriers were now available to cover convoys. But, it still proved useful in that role.

Now that is so out of reality I hadn't even considered it. The Germans might invade (supposing...) but they sure would have a heck of a time keeping it supplied.

At the time the Allies came, especially the American cornucopia, it was a boon to the local population, who were dirt poor, and I mean POOR.

I wouldn't devalue it. The Azores played the part of the "unsinkable carrier" for large land based patrol planes (B-24 size) and were also a very convenient stepping stone for air traffic to North Africa and the Italian front.

__________________

All 3 of these Island, - Island chains are important. If Madagascar were not important, the British would not have bothered to send troops to take it back. They didn't want a strong Axis presence in the Indian ocean. It would have given the Germans raiders the one thing they didn't have, ports. Not only for repair & refuel, but also another place to send prizes to & unload prisoners that took up space & ate lots of food.
Madagascar might also be used to improve liason between Germans & Japanese. Long range German aircraft could operate from Crete to Madagascar.

Canaris Islands, if Germans took Spain & Morrocco & then took Canaris islands, would have offset the Torch landings & changed the entire complexion of NA theater. As well as giving U-boats & condors extra bases. Again holding would be difficult, but taking with no opposition should not be difficult.

Azores would be most important, followed by Canaris, then Madagascar.

Fresh food & water was another prob for surface raiders that would be solved to a degree by having control of Madagascar. & long range aircraft could bring in engine parts & torpedoes for U-boats which would vastly improve their striking range & capacity.India, Australia, & New Zealand all contributed materials to NA war effort. These efforts would be very much threatened by Axis control of Madascar. Its a big Island, food & water might not be the only valueable resource. Don't know nuff bout the place to know what else it might offer.


Those who think surface raiders were an insignificant sideshow are mistaken as it was Atlantis that captured Brit radio ciphers which went a long way towards breaking Brit radio code. They also captured data on British troop & hardware strength & positions thereof. & it was Kormoran that stopped an American red cross ship & found aircraft parts & other war material. A blatant violation of neutrality act. Not to mention the oil supplied by captured Norweigian whale fleet. One ship can make a big difference in a given theater.Example, A U-boat sunk a ship containing all the motors for a load of tanks that had arrived in NA for the British, which caused a delay in British attack plans til another shipment could be brought in.

Flying in supplies like spares and torpedos would have needed alot of long range planes...

What distance are we talking about from Crete to Madagascar? Is it only the Condor that would be able to complete the Journey? What about Allied interceptors in the area?

Doesnt sound too viable to me...

__________________
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Good questions. I do know Condors could fly way out into atlantic & then on to Norway in one trip. As for other planes, I would have to get studious & check ranges of other long range planes. There were 4 engined float planes as well as Condors. Also there were surface ships, ( disguised raiders ), & supply ships as well that could carry a load of torpedoes. Interceptors would be easy to beat. Take off at night so when flying over Egypt interceptors would be practically null & void. This would be early in war before night fighters evolved. Fuel prob could be largely solved by captured ships. Am on road, so don't have to much research time.

Well, there were never very many Condors available, usually just a few dozen. Add to that that their carrying capacity was really pretty limited and they would have made poor cargo aircraft. Flying boats (particularly the large ones like the later war BV 222) were also virtually non-existant.
Aside from that what size of unit(s) would one expect the Germans to land in these remote locations? A battalion? A regiment? Britain used nearly a division equivalent taking Madagascar from the French. True, they only left little more than a battalion garrison once they finished but, they used alot of force for their initial invasion. They also had the back up of a good number of ships including several battleships (older R class vessels but with 15" guns) and a carrier. What happens when they show up with that sort of force and the Germans have few or no heavy guns to support their own units?

The Japanese are the attackers here, with Germans benefitting from it. I suppose Germans could assist, but a joint attack would be difficult to manage. Let's not forget the Germans did have a U-boat base in Penang I believe the name was, on Java. That was even farther than Madagascar. I remember seeing a photo of a U-boat crew erecting a homemade schnorkel there. anyway, large Japanese naval vessels would occupy the ports, so with Vichy French & Japanese & a few Germans to boot, The brits would have a much bigger prob in taking it back.

How useful was the Penang base to the Germans besides propaganda value. For how long did it operate and with what efficiency? How easy was it to keep it supplied with torpedos, ammo, fuel and lubricants, replacement personnel?

Wouldn't Madagascar also be at the tip of an exceedingly long supply line? With India and Ceylon sitting in the Indian Ocean? Alexandria RN base is closer to Madagascar than Yokohama is.

__________________

Well, someone is forgetting that U-boats did use the Canaris Isles for re-supplying of water and food some times. Have a friend who lives there and has provided me some good info about this.

To take Madagascar then the Japanese first had to destroy the British Indian Fleet —which almost happened in 1942— and then size Madagascar and a few isles and bases in-between the Indian Ocean to keep it supplied. Then German U-boats could have operated much better from here. We know that there were a couple of combined submarine operations between U and I boats in the Indian Ocean.

But when is people going to understand that Germany couldn't even keep supplied its forces in continental Europe, let alone North Africa, Madagascar or the Pacific!

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Well, Rodina those are good questions. When I have more data compiled, I'll get back to you. My point in mentioning it is to prove that small German bases abroad not only could be maintained, & that one actually was! As for availability of 4 engined seaboats & Condors, it would only require one Or 2 for supply duties. keep sending the same one back & forth. Also flying boats could conceivably carry a couple of 50 gallon fuel drums & refuel themselves midway on the water. Or midsize floatplanes could be refueled by a surface ship or U-boat. The point is, getting planes to Madagascar presents no insuperable problem.

The Japanese situation was that because of defeat at midway, longrange plans such as invasion of Ceylon were put on back burner. Guadalcanal had to be dealt with & so on. It was simply a matter of prioritization. Not neccessarily that it could not be done.

Let's not forget that japan had many longrange aircraft to boot.

All right, I'll be on the lookout.

In any case, these out-on-a-limb bases are in a very precarious position, depending on very fragile and low capacity logistical links to be able to mount any operations of significant volume or duration, notwithstanding the value of the personnel involved.

__________________

All right, the Spaniards leaned to the Axis while their Portuguese neighbours had more Atlantic sympathies, notwithstanding their weird meta-fascist regime.

For some reason the Spaniards were getting Me109s and PzIVs in 1943 while the Portuguese were sinking under a sea of Spitfire V and Hurricanes IIc

__________________

Yes, the Penang base would be small, but again even one U-boat can wreak quite a bit of havoc. Interesting about Canaries being used for supply. I read in I believe Peter Cremers book a rumor that Standard oil had tankers there & fed German ships.

To finish up on Madagascar. The Japanese did show some interest in it. They made a mini sub attack & sank a Brit tanker. I don't agree that destruction of British India fleet would be a requirement for Japanese landings there. The Germans did not destroy the British naval presence in medtieranean before landing at Tripoli. The Indian ocean is a much bigger lake than meditteranean.

Rodina. I did find some data on Penang. It is in Malaya, not Java. The Germans also used 2 other bases one in Seletar Singapore, & one at Batavia Jakarta. U-181 sank 27 ships in 4 patrols for 138.779 tons. not exactly "insignificant" A couple of other U-boats operated there with a float plane from the Michel raider. for more data punch in www.combinedfleet.com/I-501.htm

Thankyou, I read your article. I agree, not insignificant. But bear in mind the difficulty: how sustainable could this effort be? Transit time, per your link, was over 4 months! U-181 with no military load could transport cargo to the weight of 250 tons of strategic materials. How much tonnage was any of the freighters she sank able to carry?

Would a few sporadic (and risky) flights by German floatplanes be able to sustain operations?

How important were the 27 ships sunk? What were they carrying? Oil? Planes? Tanks? Infantry (the most precious cargo of all? Or was it "general bulk"?

I (for lack of better knowledge, as this