Despite their heavy loses just prior to the unconditional surrender, I would think that Germany still had a formidable military force. With this in mind, if Patton got his way and the western allies combined forces with the Nazi's to re-invade Russia, think they could take Moscow before winter set in?

Not at all…

Patton runs towards Soviet lines and his Army ceases to exist in less than a week… then the Red Army rolls over Ike's 95 divisions and the rest of the pathetic German war machine.

A few months later, however, the Red Army is exhausted and the American juggernaut has just came into action, and even may have vaporised Moscow (along with the Politbureau and Uncle Joe) with a 'Little Boy'.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

-----------If the strategic objective was to push the Russians out of Europe than this might have been achieved by the fall with or without an A bomb, keeping in mind that Uncle Joe moved many Siberian units East to grab up as much of Asia as he could get from the retreating Japanese.

The Blue Max

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"I'd rather have a German Division in front of me, than a French division behind me"

Gen. George S. Patton

Didn´t the US troops do the same after V-E day in order to fight the Japanese? So the Allied forces in Europe were depleted and would not have been able to fight the Red Army and push them out of Europe.

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Ignoring the total insanity of Patton's idea of attacking the Soviet Union. the vast majority of the German army left in May 45 was either too young, too old, or too sick to be considered a formidable military formation

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

Dropping the bomb on Moscow might very well be a problem as well, with so many fighters in the air......

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Not with the American air corps, and the technologies of the german aircraft industry in allied hands

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If this "what-if" assumes a White on Red war without finishing Japan it is ridicilous. If such a war is assumed to start shortly after Japan is defeated then it depends on a number of factors:

Do the Western Allies demobilize? If they are starting this war as suggested this is unlikely so they would have about 90 to 100 mechanzied divisions in Europe with an average "slice" strength of about 35,000 men (ie including attached units) There would be about an additional 20 in the Pacific at the same strength. Additionally, China had about 10 Western equivalent and about 100 poor quality divisions in existance.
The Western Allies have complete naval superiority everywhere. Both sides have about equal numbers of aircraft but, the Soviet air forces are purely tactical in nature. Additionally, the Western Allies have an overwhelming preponderance of many technologies associated with air power, particularly nighttime operations.
The Soviets have about 300 - 400 divisions with about 40 mechanized ones with the leg / cavalry units running with slice at about 10,000 men and the mechanized ones at about 20,000 with slice. About a quarter of their units are in the Far East.
If it is the West that opens hostilities I would expect the initial operations to be very heavily attritive in nature with the Soviets taking very heavy casualties in "Kursk" type fighting. The Soviets would have also faced a secondary problem with their rear areas going into open revolt in many of the nations they recently subjugated. I would expect, in particular, the Poles to prove unreliable allies for them as would likely the Germans.
The Western Allies would also start to use strategic bombing to strangle the forward forces of the Soviets. Deprived of their rail net their Armies in Europe would be in trouble. The Soviets lack an air force capable of a like response and the Allies have more means to make up for lack of rail capacity (eg., shipping and trucks).
At best, the Soviets might initially push the West back to the Rhine exhausting themselves in the process. At worst, they make no headway and are getting ground into a pulp in the face of superior Western firepower. Note, the Soviets may have equal numbers of tubes in artillery but Western practice makes and their system of employment make them extremely vulnerable to counterbattery fire.
On the whole, the Soviets in the long run are in very serious trouble. They lack the manpower base to fight another long war having suffered what? 10 million plus casualties minimum already. The US has been virtually untouched and has just reached its full wartime productivity. Rearming the Germans would only help them. If the West can advance against the Soviets it is initially into friendly territory that provides more manpower and industrial capacity.
Stalin knew better than to start another war with the West and was right to avoid one.

T.A. by this time the red army had more then 500 divisions consisting of more then 6.2 million men, not 300-400 divisions.

If the beaten and the demoralized Germans caused so much trouble for the Allies at the battle of the Bulge, with no fuel and little air support and several hundred tanks, how might the Allies due against an experienced, well motivated and well led Red army which suffered from neither air support nor fuel and instead of hundreds of tanks rolled in with several thousands?


Also the Allies had a much longer supply line then the Soviets in Europe

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Well Led Red Army, how much is it per ounce of what you're smoking? Also, what motivation would they have to fight against the Western Allies?

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It seems that you are comparing the Red Army of 41' to the Red Army of 44'..

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Im comparing the Red Army to a Western (British/American) army at any point during its existence.

The Soviet military structure does not breed nearly as good a leader as does the American/British model

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Ok, let's use 500 divisions, your numbers. This gives a average division slice of about 8,000 men, a bit more for the mechanized / tank corps. This means that one US / British infantry division has the equivalent manpower of about four Soviet infantry divisions or, that the Soviets are looking at parity (at best) in terms of fighting power. This does not bode well for a quick or large Soviet victory.

As for the Ardennes, the Germans attacked with three armies (6th SS, 5th Panzer and, 7th Army). The US was holding their frontage with just three divisions (106th, 28th Infantry and, 9th Armored) except in front of 6th SS on Schnee Eifel / Eisenborn Ridge area where there were much denser US divisions).
As it was, 5th Panzer in a matter of about two days was able to finally break through the 28th Infantry Division's position largely destroying this unit. An entire PANZER ARMY taking nearly 72 hours to defeat a single thinly spread US infantry division backed by a single combat command and a handful of seperate battalions!
7th Army went nowhere right from the start. They basically ran into a wreck on their southern attack axis, stalled and, then assumed a defensive role for the rest of this battle.
In the North, 6th Panzer Army made two thrusts: One onto Eisenborn Ridge where the best equipped SS panzer divisions in the German army were destroyed in less than a week in detail fighting nothing more than US infantry units. In the Loshiem Gap a single Volksgrenadier division (19th) was barely able to overcome a single US cavalry squadron in picket positions and then with the reminants of this division they managed to defeat the 106th Infantry Division that had been on the line for a total of just 7 days in their first combat posting. 6th Panzer Army was forced (note that...FORCED) to move south into the success of 19th VG due to the literal clobbering they were taking on Eisenborn ridge.
For instance, 12th VG tried to attack into positions held by the 38th Mechanized Cavalry Squadron (a small battalion sized unit). Unfortunately for the 12th this seasoned unit had wire and mines in front of their MLR which had just over 100 machinegun positions (many .50 cal) and nearly 30 mortars and a battery of 105mm guns zeroed in on their front along with dug in armored cars and light tanks. The 12th VG had whole battalions literally slaughtered (that is an accurate term) trying to assault this position.

Note further, with the exception of the 106th Infantry Division no German infantry division was able to defeat its US counterpart on its own or even in combination with a second infantry division. Yet in the reverse, many German infantry divisions were beaten soundly by single US infantry divisions in the ETO, MTO and, North Africa.
Moving to the Eastern Front, Soviet divisions did little better much of the time against German infantry divisions much as the Germans failed against the US. Only when heavily reinforced or when it was several on one could the Soviets reliably succeed.

None of this bodes well for the Red Army in a Red Star - White Star battle.

Great, another Let's-See-How-Screwed-The-Russians-Are-If-We-Were-In-The-Twilight-Zone thread. A long time since we had one.

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

Too bad you have not heard of these guys......

Chuikov
Konev
Timoshenko
Rokossovsky
Vasilevsky
Voroshilov
Zhukov

But your right and I dont want to bore you, afterall the are just mere peasants in comparison with Bradley, Ike, Monty and Patton

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

When one speaks of leadership, you can always name a half dozen Generals that you deem sufficient.

But the REAL leadership of an Army is with its Junior Officers, the Lieutenants, Captains, and Majors that seize the initiative. There is NONE of that in the Soviet model, because after all, we must consult Comrade Commissar, as to whether or not I can let my troops use the latrine...

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T.A.

I think that we can both agree, that the Ardennes offensive was doomed from the beginning. However not before the German offensive created more then a 50 mile crater resulting in such a stir that Churchill phoned Stalin and urgently asked him to increase his offensive in the east as to relieve pressure from the Allies. Not bad for the already beaten Germans eh?

As far as the original thread........ As both me and you can make good points and point out interesting information, they are afterall only our opinions. Since this is a " what if " thread and this has never happend ( thankfully ) we will never know the truth.... So me and you can go back and forth for months, till both of our faces turn blue and still not come to a conclusion.

So what do you say we just put this silly debate behind us eh?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

While Russia would prove to be a more troublesome foe than Germany, I would still see an Allied victory in the end. Russia possessed more armor than the allies and better. Yes the M26 was good, but the IS-2 and IS-3 were better IMO. The T-34 is better than the Sherman. The strong point of the allies is in air power and in combined arms combat. Russia did have good fighters but not enough nor the ability to replace them. Once Russian fighters were cleared the ground attack planes would be easy prey.

This is the point where Russia would fail. All of the armor would now become sitting ducks for allied fighter bombers, supplies and replacements would not be able to reach the front. The original front line divisions would be destroyed and the allies would press forward.

I do not think that it would have mattered that Japan had not surrendered because things were already in place to finish them off without more strength from the ETO. While some units were ordered to prepare to move to the PTO, no substantial moves were made for several months after the ETO was closed.

The Germans at the end were not what they had been several years before but they were still something. Those that were fit would have added at least one million men if not 2, and their equipment was still serviceable to a large degree.

I do doubt that Moscow could have been taken before winter, or if that would have been the target at all. I also wonder how the American and British people would have felt about fighting Russia. After all of the propaganda about how great Russia was would there have been a lot of questions about this battle.

This would have been one for the books though and maybe some one should make a movie about it.