Inspired by two previous threads, one on Britain being the key player in WW2 and the other being the "what if" thread on Japan not attacking Pearl Harbor, I began to wonder what would have happened had we chosen not to cooperate with the USSR.

I don't even have an answer for that yet, as Lend-Lease had a very substantial impact on the Soviet War effort, and our intelligence did inform Stalin of many German moves, including the attack at Kursk.

So what do you think? Could the Soviets have made it? Would they have fallen, still won, or achieved some sort of stalemate that Hitler would eventually grow weary of and negotiate a peace?

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

The greatest downfall of Germany in their conflict with Russia was logistical in my opinion. Russia did get some logistical support from the US but the Germans did not utilize their entire industrial infrastructure to pursue the war they waged against the Allies until 1944.

Russia was able to trade land for time and let the Germans try to figure out how to supply themselves over the vast distances of Western Russia while they quickly ratcheted up their industrial war machine. The production numbers that they achieved would have obviously overwhelmed Germany. The support from the US was important, but I have not seen enough information to determine if it was really crucial. I really think the US support helped shorten the time needed to overwhelm the Germans but that it would have happened anyway.

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

I guess it could have gone the other way and Russia could have called a truce as they did in WWI and it would have released many German divisions for the west.

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Hitler never had any thoughts of negotiating with Stalin. He had decided once the Barbarossa begun that it was all or nothing.

For Churchill the opening of the second front was a welcome news. The German attention was directed to Russia( invasion threat gone and bombings lessened in the west ). So he did all he could to keep the second front alive.

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Yup, if Germany had concentrated on fully gearing up their armaments and war industry much earlier in the war, we could get at least a stalemate on the eastern front and the Allies may not even have defeated the Luftwaffe.

Hitler expected the war with russia to be finished pretty quick.

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The Two World Wars

The war would have lasted longer but the Russians would eventually push the Germans out but at a slower pace. Because of the large amounts of trucks, the Russians were able to outpace the German retreat. Without the trucks, The Russians would resort slugging it out and keeping up with the German retreat. It would give the Germans time to set up defenses thus prolonging the war in the East. Perhaps, there would not have been an eastern bloc. Hmmmm

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Hmmm....that is assuming that the initial German trust into Russia fails, right ? If the germans have enough and efficient supplies for a faster advance into Russia and they reach Moscow before Winter, would the Soviet Union have fallen with their capitial ?

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The Two World Wars

I would have to say no since Russia was preparing for the fall of it's western provinces. Look at how they moved their war producing factories to the East. This was not in preparation for end of conflict. The were in it for the long haul as long as Stalin lived.

With their supply lines overextending already in 41', The German advance would have to halt at Moscow. That would be the extent of the advance for 41'. Lets not forget, they were not prepared for that first Winter. The Russians fought back with no help from the Western allies at this time. So all events from 41 -42 would not have been altered. So the German advance of 41 would have been halted nevertheless.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

...What would Hitler do if Stalin would not surrender after losing Moscow? The Russians had their oil reserves and many factories behind the Urals so Hitler probably could not hurt the production there anyway. And Lend Lease would provide help as well to keep the war going on. Hitler should have read the book on Napoleon´s attack on Russia a couple of times before trying himself.

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Ha! Great minds think alike master Kai

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Must admit PzJgr, excellent timing...

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The Russians offered Napoleon peace when he took Moscow, but he didn't accept. And during Barbarossa I believe Stalin offered Hitler a very favorable peace. Perhaps the mistake was not in invading Russia for Napoleon or Hitler, but rather not quitting in Russia while they were ahead.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

True. But it is like having a wolf in your backyard. How long before it bites you?

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

The juggernaut that was Russian industry East of the Urals was slow to start rolling. I think it would have been slower still if the allies had not cooperated. It still would have ground on in the end. If the Germans had taken Moscow it would have been much more difficult, but still. . .

Shifting German production to full in the late 1930s, not invading France and instead concentrating only on Russia. These things might have made a decisive difference, but I think the long war was not Germany's forte.

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

The options available to Germany are to start war in the mid 40's as the Generals wanted but risking giving the Soviets time to build up their forces or attack in 39' and hope for a quick victory. Might have worked had England and France not declared war.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

A bit out of the title of the thread but...

Hitler´s decision to attack was based on the fact that Russia would crumble from the attack. This was based on the assumptions made that 1. All the capable officers were killed in 1938 purges 2. The Red Army battle worthiness would be the same as in Winter war 1939-40 against Finland.

Hitler did not count that Stalin made changes in the army that were learnt from the lessons in fighting the Winter War as well as what had happened in the West 1940.

Of course the huge men resources count too. Just think if in 1944 Ike had lost, say , 400,000 men in one battle (!). What would happen? Stalin just kept fighting and he lost millions in 1941 alone.

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With the huge losses on the Russian side during operation babarossa, it's surprising that the Soviet Union didnt just collapse in 1941. I am pretty sure that most countries and it's citizens would.

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The Two World Wars

Welcome to the Forum Hands! [img]graemlins/salute.gif[/img]

That is the result of a police state. After decades of living in fear of being sent to a gulag made them not even think of voicing against the state. So the Russian peasant or the German volk had no choice but to bear it out.

[ 31. October 2005, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: PzJgr ]

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Russia being such a vast state and communication of news being primitive by today's standards, as well as being controlled by the state, that the citizens were not given the information to make a choice like that, even if they were allowed.

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

Wow, Thanks!

It is really "too bad" the Nazis didnt take advantage of the fact that most Russians didnt like Stalin and win support from them at the beginning. If they did, they wont face such an opposition later on.

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The Two World Wars

Agreed. Had the Germans been more sincere in their crusade against communism, Stalin and his cronies would have been done in as well as Hitler having more countries behind him.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Another thing to thank National Socialism for!

The many peoples of the Soviet Union (Ukrainians, Bielorrussians, Armenians, Gerogians, Mongols, Latvians…) were all considered Untermenschen. The Soviets, since June 22nd 1941, did NOT have any option at all: it was either achieving absolute victory or either facing enslavery and ultimate extermination. Period.

The Soviet people, that had endured so bravely the horrible conditions of a bloody civil war and totalitarism (famine, terror, death), was used enough to bad treatment to bear even the nazis. Besides, they had no option. That is why they kept on.

Za rodinu!

[img]graemlins/salute.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/salute.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/salute.gif[/img]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun