BTW, if you wondered how lost Hitler was:

" The Russians did not have 1,600 tanks, they ONLY had 1,400 tanks!"

Hitler commenting in March 1945 General Raus´s report on battles on the Eastern Front

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haha

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"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." -Winston Churchill

I suppose that to Hitler's deluded way of thinking you can understand why he sent the 'best' to the Bulge....he really did believe that a decisive blow could be struck against the Allies, possibly bringing a halt to their advance in the West. Even Hitler by this stage couldn't have thought that anything of the kind could be achieved in the East...?

And, on another topic, I've always thought that the success of the Tigers in Normandy lay more with their use as 'mobile pillboxes' ( at which they were very effective ). When Tigers were used offensively late in the war ( ie the Bulge ) they were left 'way behind.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

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Tho somehow, I think Himmler was a ways beyond the ole chicken farm by this point!

On Kursk, yeah, I kinda had that in the back of my head, that no matter what the germans did, the russians really had them there. I guess more heavy tanks/ more functional panthers would have only maybe prolonged the battle a bit.

But the Russia point I think is an interesting one. Some sort of significant number of heavy tanks- wether they were Panthers or Tigers, or some other heavy tank- could maybe have made something of a difference. The advance on Moscow in winter 41 probably would not have been effected much- in large part because of the fuel issues TA mentioned earlier, and becuase of the "fire brigade" nature in which the germans likely would have used the heavy tanks. But- in defending against the russian counterattack outside moscow that winter, a couple battalions of heavy tanks could have actually made a difference. Especially considering that the russians- again as TA noted- did not have tons of T34s, but more of a mixed force. And the idea of Tigers or Panthers against T60s and T70s is... laughable.

You'd think so... but... I think I saw a thread somewhere in here about the movie Downfall- and I'd say that did an admirable job of showing just how far gone Hitler was in 45, and I'd imagine in late 44, he wasn't too much better.
I wouldn't put any delusions past him!

And agreed on the usage of Tigers- especially King Tigers, those things really were semi-mobile pillboxes.
But I would say that, at least from what I've read, that Tiger Is were a decent bit more mobile and maneuverable that oen might think. I'd say the main aspect would be time and place- in the wide open spaces of Russia in say, 43, the Tigers could use all their strengths, including *decent* autootive characteristics.
But in the hilly hedgerows and narrow roads and bridges of Western Europe in 1944- when allied planes roamed the skies at will-
Semi-mobile pillboxes would be the *best* the Tiger battalions could hope for!

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

I think you're right about Hitler's 1944 state-of-mind, but he really believed that the Americans were morally degenerate and would fold up when assaulted by his supermen.....

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

the Königstiger was about impervious to Allied air attacks as shown especially on the Ost front during 1945. Sit and wait and let the hunter be the hunter. SS Schwere Pz Abt 503 did this and although losing everything finally in Berlin knocked out over 400 Soviet Panzers plus a host of Soviet MT. the units forming little sectins of 3 tanks in Pommern and the area East of Berlin till trying to gather it's meagre self in Berlin were in constant contact with Soviet craft such as Il-2's and twin engine bombers. _________________________________

the Alt Austrian was so daft he about fired the Sturmgruppen after having a brief staff metting and hearing they had lost about as many SturmFw's as bombers they shot down on November 2, 1944. Merseberg was a slaughter house for both sides as our vet here, b17sam can testify

Any tank is impervious to air attack (discounting L-4s with bazookas ) as they are very small targets therefore very difficult to hit. I can't find the source now, but Dr. John D. Salt used to say that the impact percentage with Typhoon rockets was 4% on the firing range.

If you start hitting their logistical chain that's another matter. Then the KTs (and pretty much else) will be left to 3-tank platoons acting as pillboxes because they won't have much fuel to allow them to do anything much else. The best anti-tank weapon the U.S.Army had was a B-26 over a marshalling yard! (well, not one but a lot of them ).

Of course an entire battalion of tanks with the dreadful 8.8cm L/71 can cover an enormous amount of ground, but I remember reading on other threads that one must be wary of over optimistic figures especially by the end of the war. How long is this claims period? Who is claiming them? What confirmation method was applied?

Was this confirmed by occupying the battlefield and counting wrecks? I was under the impression that the Germans were not exactly in the position to do that by this time of the war...

[ 21. January 2006, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Za Rodinu ]

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I found this quote by chance:

In a week of fighting 5th PzDiv claimed* to have destroyed 295 Soviet armoured vehicles of which 128 were credited to the Tiger tanks of sPzAbt 505. By 5th July the 5th PzDiv had been reduced from 125 tanks to 18, and all of the Tigers had been lost. (in "Operation Bagration", Steve Zaloga)

* interesting word

By this I wish to mean that a coin has two faces: not much profit in killing a lot of Rushcki-Popoffs if you get anihilated in the process.

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you must realize the most important thing that was behind every single German fighting man during 1945.

do not let the Soviets enter Germany, and even if it happens you will fight to the death in protecting your familie.

that my friend sums it up perfectly. It was because of the fighting spirit of the truppen that caused ssuch horrendous grief amongst the Soviets as they enetred westeward even with the Wehrmacht beind destroyed in the process. to answer your earlier inquiry the stas on the W-SS Schwer Pz Abt. comes from documented log books from the hsitorian and the families of the suriving and now deceased crewmen besides the Lufw. Feld and Fallshirm turppen that served alongside the Heavy singled out Königstigers. remember this in the case of the W-SS 503rd. They were never on the attack but provided last ditch effort to plug huge gaps in the existing line until retreat took them back into Berlin with surviviors popping out of the Halbe pocket and going through the western suburbs of Berlin into US and British captivity. The Schwere Abt. W-SS 502 also served in the Halbe Pocket with the SS Hetzer Abt 561 which scored a huge amount of Soviet tank kills and retreated through Berlin to the west.

All right, Erich, one of the things to be taken for granted was Soviet incompetence at low tactical levels, resulting in disproportionate loss figures.

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I've always tended towards a decent amount of skepticism regarding numbers, regardless of the source. The commotion of a battle, difficulties in communication, simple environmental aspects such as range, smoke, weather, and difficulty in confirming anything...

I still hearken back to my favorite example- if a number of "reliable" sources cannot even figure out and agree on exactly how many Tiger I tanks were produced by germany during the war, how can anyone ever be sure of any exact numbers- especially exact numbers taken from battlefield situations?

VERY well said!

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

yes and Soviet T-34's ran all over the Kursk sphere destroying W-SS Tigers at will ........ propaganda taken to the extreme.

~ In the case of the Wehrmacht it would send out confirmation units for the armor battalions once the field was in their possession. In Normandie it was eye spotted obviously but also done by foot, landser hugging the ground and doing inspections during the day and even by night as they did not have the proper air surveliance obviously not in their favour at this time in 44.

Heck, not even I go that far! The histories from the 70s and 80s I read do show a "coloured" interpretation. The book by Martin Caidin on Kursk (The Tigers Are Burning ) swallowed this party line bait, hook, line and rod including the charging T-34s and all! Exactly how not to write a book, but in the 60s there weren't the sources that exist now.

Perhaps by this time it would be more proper to say "they would send confirmation units if the field was in their possession..."

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That's easy, the side in possession after the battle just goes out and counts the wrecks.

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I'm afraid Martin Caidin is noted for rather sloppy research and sensational assertions, certainly in his aviation titles.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

the Soviet victory myth over W-Ss armor was continued till this date until Sylvester Stadlers epic book on the W-SS pz korps became available and author George Nipe used it as the core for his monumental work on Kursk and the defensive battles at the Mius. The prime thing i do not care for Nipes work is the repetitiveness of some his statements through the chapters. With Wolfgagn Schneiders new tome on Das Reich Tigers the T1's at Kursk will be given full credit for the accomplishments although retreat was at hand thanks to the Gift-zwerg

did not matter even in 45 the Germans would send armed recon teams forward, both sides accomplished the tasks even under artillery fire

Well said Martin, about M C's book(s). I read it long ago (Tigers-a..-b...)and was sorry it didn't come with a BS detector. Propaganda indeed.
it comes back to Kai and his quote from the Pole about how the Russians re-write history. I've heard half of history is a lie, but M C took that to new heights.

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There's one way to find out if a man is honest-ask him. If he says "Yes", you know he's a crook. Groucho Marx

And this is the German generals' main problem. They thought of war in Clausewitzian terms: the greater violence in the shortest possible time immediately and invariably brings victory. That may be true when playing Blitzkrieg with ill-prepared weaker nations, like France, Poland, Greece or Norway, but certainly NOT when your fighting the world's three greatest powers.

God, it sounds like the poor little Germans were some defenceless victims…

Three armies and half-a-million men against the late 1945 Red Army? It would have melted away in a matter of days… EVEN Hitler knew that.

Right! And don't forget the typical Prussian idiotic obssession for pincer movements! German generals insisted in the use of pincers and Kesselschlächte (annihilaton battles) all the time, in the open steppes of the Don and within the very ruined streets and sewers of Stalingrad!

Bravo!!!

Indeed. He said 'The Red Army is too powerful', or something like that. He also respected the British, so he chose to attack the 'rookies', which were, by the way, the ones with the best recovery capability and fastest strenght growing rate of all the Allies…

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun