Axis

Members: 4,317
Threads: 15,303
Posts: 191,557
Online: 254

Newest Member:
norwaypegasus

 
 
 
Go Back   World War II Forums > General Discussion > What If?
Register FAQ Gallery Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


What If? Alternate History: Speculate about WWII battles that never were. Could the Axis have won? What if Hitler had the bomb?

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #76 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2007, 10:47 AM
Dishonorably Discharged
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 91
Balderdasher is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Yet another "Operation Sealion" what if?

2 years ago on TV there was a series called "Hitler's England" or Britain, I think. I believe it was based upon a book using recently released Secrecy Act files including some startling Churchill statements.

For example.
According to it, Churchill was willing to violate the Geneva Convention on Bio-chemical weapons and bombard the invasion beaches with Nerve Gas/agents.

But it also went into the conventional plan and lines of defenses.
It even mentioned that in the real war alot of the British gov't and national treasures had already been transferred to Canada where a new UK Parliament would operate from. The Crown already had its own residences but it went into interesting detail.

Though the series went on to assume that even with the Nerve gas used, Britain would be occupied. Then it went into the Resistance movement.

Does that help?
Anyone confirm the name of the book or series?
  #77 (permalink)  
Old June 12th, 2007, 06:55 AM
Dishonorably Discharged
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 363
Roddoss72 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Yet another "Operation Sealion" what if?

Correct i saw the series and the biological weapon of choice was Anthrax and Churchill authorized that in the event of an invasion vast quantities of Anthrax would be released along the invasion front. Churchill was fully aware of the civilian casualtie that would eventuate and the political fallout within the populace but was willing to doo all that was available to Britains survival.

And also that the Series did in fact convey that secret British document stated that Britain could not hope to hold off an invasion had the Germans had launched Operation Sealion. Mainly due to the fact that the RAF was running out of trained pilots if the Germans had kept up the pressure on the RAF for two weeks more then the RAF was a spent force, plenty of planes but no one to fly them.

And also i think i have read that the RN heavy units (Battleships, Battlecruisers and Aircraft Carriers) were indeed expressly forbidden to be used in the role of Invasion Fleet interdiction, they were to be expressly used in the transferrence of Royal and Government members and assets to Canada.
  #78 (permalink)  
Old August 14th, 2007, 02:04 PM
Kai-Petri's Avatar
Kenraali
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Kotka, Finland
Posts: 13,254
Kai-Petri is a jewel in the roughKai-Petri is a jewel in the roughKai-Petri is a jewel in the roughKai-Petri is a jewel in the roughKai-Petri is a jewel in the rough
Default Re: Yet another "Operation Sealion" what if?

They did give the signal Cromwell on Sept 7th 1940... Oops!

September 7th 1940

The signal for this alert is "Cromwell", a code name that was used only by the Army. And one of those Army battalions that were alerted was the 18th Australian Infantry that was based at Amesbury Abbey. The report came through at about 9.30pm. The 18th Infantry Brigade was at this time, only at about half strength because half of the brigade was on leave, many of them now trapped in London because of the bombing. But was hard to keep such a secret, church bells started to peel, road blocks were set up and even plans were put in place for the blowing up of some of the bridges.
For those that were on duty, they were told to stand by for an immediate move. By midnight, no further information or orders had been received so the men were allowed to return to their billets, but were to be prepared to move at one hours notice should the invasion be confirmed.
__________________
  #79 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2007, 12:07 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Holly, Michigan
Posts: 188
John Dudek is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Yet another "Operation Sealion" what if?

The Royal Navy call sign equivelent to the Army's CROMWELL Alert was "Blackbird". This was the signal that the German invasion fleet was sighted, identified and inbound. All Royal Navy warships within reason were instructed to return to the nearest RN base ASAP, re-fuel, re-arm and make ready to do battle against them in the channel. This meant that RN destroyers would abandon their convoys and make a mad dash back to base to re-arm and re-equip.
  #80 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2007, 01:58 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Stockport , England
Posts: 712
redcoat will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Yet another "Operation Sealion" what if?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
Correct i saw the series and the biological weapon of choice was Anthrax and Churchill authorized that in the event of an invasion vast quantities of Anthrax would be released along the invasion front. Churchill was fully aware of the civilian casualtie that would eventuate and the political fallout within the populace but was willing to doo all that was available to Britains survival.
No.
Anthrax was never considered for use against any invasion force, just Mustard gas.
Quote:
And also that the Series did in fact convey that secret British document stated that Britain could not hope to hold off an invasion had the Germans had launched Operation Sealion.
Again no.
There was no realistic way the Germans could hope to protect the invasion fleet from being sunk by the largest navy in the world at that time, the RN.

Quote:
Mainly due to the fact that the RAF was running out of trained pilots if the Germans had kept up the pressure on the RAF for two weeks more then the RAF was a spent force, plenty of planes but no one to fly them.
Guess what Its another No.
On the date of the switch to bombing London the RAF had more operational single seat fighter pilots than the Luftwaffe. The shortage of pilots Dowding was worried about, were experienced Squadron and flight leaders.

Quote:
And also i think i have read that the RN heavy units (Battleships, Battlecruisers and Aircraft Carriers) were indeed expressly forbidden to be used in the role of Invasion Fleet interdiction,
Must admit, I'm getting a little fed up with using this word
No, they weren't forbidden, its just that the RN didn't plan to use them. They considered the 20+ cruisers, the 50+ destroyers, and the hundreds of auxiliary craft were enough to deal with any invasion force
Quote:
they were to be expressly used in the transferrence of Royal and Government members and assets to Canada.
Ho Hum
No, they weren't
__________________
if in doubt....Panic!!!!
  #81 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2007, 04:34 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Holly, Michigan
Posts: 188
John Dudek is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Yet another "Operation Sealion" what if?

Quote:
Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
No.
Anthrax was never considered for use against any invasion force, just Mustard gas.

Again no.
There was no realistic way the Germans could hope to protect the invasion fleet from being sunk by the largest navy in the world at that time, the RN.


Guess what Its another No.
On the date of the switch to bombing London the RAF had more operational single seat fighter pilots than the Luftwaffe. The shortage of pilots Dowding was worried about, were experienced Squadron and flight leaders.


Must admit, I'm getting a little fed up with using this word
No, they weren't forbidden, its just that the RN didn't plan to use them. They considered the 20+ cruisers, the 50+ destroyers, and the hundreds of auxiliary craft were enough to deal with any invasion force

Ho Hum
No, they weren't
If the Royal Navy didn't intend to use "heavy units" to interdict and destroy the incoming German Invasion ships, then why did they send a large portion of the fleet to more southerly ports like Rosyth, instead of keeping them safe and away from harm at Scapa Flow?
  #82 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2007, 06:09 PM
Martin Bull's Avatar
Acting Wg. Cdr.
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: London
Posts: 8,953
Martin Bull is just really niceMartin Bull is just really niceMartin Bull is just really niceMartin Bull is just really niceMartin Bull is just really niceMartin Bull is just really nice
Question Re: Yet another "Operation Sealion" what if?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Dudek View Post
why did they send a large portion of the fleet to more southerly ports like Rosyth, instead of keeping them safe and away from harm at Scapa Flow?
Didn't the 'Royal Oak' and Prien have something to do with the decision ?
__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson
  #83 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2007, 10:31 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Holly, Michigan
Posts: 188
John Dudek is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Yet another "Operation Sealion" what if?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bull View Post
Didn't the 'Royal Oak' and Prien have something to do with the decision ?
The sinking of the Royal Oak was much earlier. By 9/40 the blockships and defenses at Scapa flow had been added-to and markedly increased. Moving the Fleet South was as a result of the Germans preparing to make Sealion a reality.
  #84 (permalink)  
Old August 20th, 2007, 08:42 AM
Kai-Petri's Avatar
Kenraali
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Kotka, Finland
Posts: 13,254
Kai-Petri is a jewel in the roughKai-Petri is a jewel in the roughKai-Petri is a jewel in the roughKai-Petri is a jewel in the roughKai-Petri is a jewel in the rough
Default Re: Yet another "Operation Sealion" what if?

I guess it was up to the RN then (?)

From " The last ditch" by David Lampe:

"So few military vehicles had been brought home from France that the few mobile defence units that could be raised in the summer of 1940 had to rely on hired civilian motor coaches for their mobility. Eight hours´ notice was needed just to get these units on the road- more time than the first wave of Hitler´s invasion armada would have taken to cross the English Channel and unload its troops. The defence units would then have crept across the country very slowly, impeded by the absence of signposts."
__________________
  #85 (permalink)  
Old August 20th, 2007, 11:16 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Stockport , England
Posts: 712
redcoat will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Yet another "Operation Sealion" what if?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai-Petri View Post
I guess it was up to the RN then (?)
By September the date of the planned invasion, the equipment situation for the British army units defending Britain had improved quite considerably, as this post from the American poster RichT090 on the Axis History forum shows
Quote:
548 Cruiser Tanks had been built by 30 September; 134 had been lost in France and 137 were in Egypt, which still left over 200 in Britain, enough to equip the four Cruiser regiments of 1st Armoured Division that were active. The situation with Infantry Tanks was even brighter, of 524 completed, 120 were lost in France and 52 had been shipped to Egypt on 18 August leaving well over 330 available, enough to equip the five regiments of the GHQ Reserve 1st and 21st Army Tank Brigade to full War Establishment and leave enough left over to allow the continued training and equipping of the six regiments of 23rd and 24th Army Tank Brigades (essentially a full regiments worth per brigade). And there were a plethora of Light Tanks available, of 1,340 built, 321 had been lost in France and 275 were in Egypt, leaving over 700, more than enough in theory to equip the dozen or so regiments formed to War Establishment. Note that by actual count the three ‘light’ regiments of 22nd Armoured Brigade averaged 42.33 tanks, 73 percent of their War Establishment of 58.

Just 139 A11 Infantry Tank ‘Matilda’ Mark I were built, 65 prewar and 74 between 1 September 1939 and 31 March 1940. In contrast just 2 prototype A12 Infantry Tank ‘Matilda’ Mark II had been completed prewar and 34 more up to 31 March 1940. All production Matilda from 1 April 1940 were A11 Mark II, but were supplemented by Valentine production beginning in May. There were a total of 121 Matilda II and Valentine ‘I’ tanks produced in the second quarter, 227 in the third and 354 in the fourth of 1940. Of the 140 Mark I, 97 were lost in France, along with 23 Mark II. In addition, 52 Mark II went to the desert in August 1940 and more later in the fall (November IIRC). So although the bulk on hand with troops as of 1 June were Mark I (60+), by the end of September the majority in England were actually Mark II (300+).

In terms of newly produced artillery, not counting guns evacuated from France (a total of 322 of all types or roughly one-in-eight had been brought back), there were about 140 2-pdr AT guns, 568 40mm Bofors AA guns, 294 25-pdr guns, 728 3.7-inch AA, and 118 other miscellaneous guns added to the Army from 1 April to 30 September. In terms of ‘B’ Echelon vehicles, 63,879 had been lost in France, but 54,057 new ones had been produced.

Also by that time the initial shipments of equipment sold by the US had arrived, including 895 M1917 and M1897 75mm guns, each with 1,200 rounds of ammunition, 300 3-inch mortars, each with 325 rounds of ammunition (enough for 150 battalions under current WE), 1,157 Lewis, 7,071 Vickers, 10,000 M1917 MG, and 25,000 BAR.
__________________
if in doubt....Panic!!!!
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Google
 

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:20 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5
Copyright © 2000 - 2007, the World War II Network, all rights reserved.Ad Management by RedTyger

Allies