WHAT IF DDAY DIDNT HAPPEN - Page 2

Carl W Schwamberger · #26 (**permalink**) July 21st, 2008, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Rundstedt

Why is this significant, because this is prior to the German offensive drive towards Stalingrad, the failure of the German 4th Panzer Army and 6th Army would not have taken place yet, so Germany could send in a larger force from the begining, so in effect the German's could commit an extra 500,000 troops in the southern thrust alone, could the Soviets counter an extra 500,000 German troops in that area in that time period, i seriously doubt it.

v.R

My understanding is there was a severe difficulty in requipping the army to make up the losses of the June 1941 - Febuary 1942 period. Enough equipment to bring the four armys used in Case Blau to full strength was available, but the other armys in the USSR, and in the west had to be neglected to do this. As always transportation was a critical problem and I'm skeptical there were enough trucks used in Africa or by the western Europe garrisons to support another 500,000 or even 200,000 men in mobile offensive operations in the USSR.

I'd also want to examine the artillery ammunition available. Complaints by German commanders all across the Eastern Front keep poping up, about artillery ammo shortages in 1942. Not much use in doubling the size of Army Group South if you have to reduce the ammo per gun by half.

Slipdigit · #27 (**permalink**) July 21st, 2008, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Rundstedt

So what you are saying if i understand you correctly, that somehow after the British/Americans and the Germans sign a Peace Treaty in say mid 1942, that Germany is not going to reassign all those army assets from North Africa to Russia, also as i pointed out to Tomcat, Operation Torch does not take place, so the domino effect does not take place, no allied landings in North Africa, Sicily, Sardegnia or Italy in 1942/1943, no diversion of military assets to fight those campaigns, they are sent to fight the Soviets also Italy is never invaded still remains a full Axis ally.

In December of 42, that would have amounted to 6 divisions in North Africa plus 48 in the West out of 270 divisions. Large numbers of the divisions in the West were forming, training or lacked transport and/or heavy artillery.

Carl W Schwamberger · #28 (**permalink**) July 21st, 2008, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Rundstedt

Carl W Schwamberger's quote.

My understanding is there was a severe difficulty in requipping the army to make up the losses of the June 1941 - Febuary 1942 period. Enough equipment to bring the four armys used in Case Blau to full strength was available, but the other armys in the USSR, and in the west had to be neglected to do this. As always transportation was a critical problem and I'm skeptical there were enough trucks used in Africa or by the western Europe garrisons to support another 500,000 or even 200,000 men in mobile offensive operations in the USSR.

von Rundstedt's reply

So what you are saying if i understand you correctly, that somehow after the British/Americans and the Germans sign a Peace Treaty in say mid 1942, that Germany is not going to reassign all those army assets from North Africa to Russia, also as i pointed out to Tomcat, Operation Torch does not take place, so the domino effect does not take place, no allied landings in North Africa, Sicily, Sardegnia or Italy in 1942/1943, no diversion of military assets to fight those campaigns, they are sent to fight the Soviets also Italy is never invaded still remains a full Axis ally.

...it may be better to have those troops in reserve.

v.R

What I was getting at is Germany was unable to bring more than four of its armys in the USSR back to full strength in the spring of 1942 for Case Blue. It does not look like there is enough transportation, particularly automotive, to support much more than that even if everything in the west and Africa is available.

In this I was only addressing the idea that Case Blue could be made significantly stronger just by adding 500,000 more men from the west and Africa. Now what might happen later in the winter of 1942 or in 1943 is another matter.

" No Allied bombing offensive from June 1942 onwards, yes i understand that German industry has been hit but at the time of mid 1942 it was not catastrophic, within 12 months German capacity would be up in full production, unhindered by the Allied Air Offensive."

More important in the remainder of 1942 and beyond would be the end of the British blockade. While Germany would still have a cash problem hindering the imeadiate payment for imports it would still be possible to get some of the most critical raw materials. ie: the Chromium that was so badly needed and nearly unavailable after 1941.

JCFalkenbergIII · #29 (**permalink**) July 21st, 2008, 03:32 AM

Like II have said before. Logistics and supplies are the bane of the "What If?".

Slipdigit · #30 (**permalink**) July 21st, 2008, 04:08 AM

You mean them there soldiers gotta eat? When did this come up?

Za Rodinu · #31 (**permalink**) July 21st, 2008, 07:22 AM

Quote:

...the Soviet Union, she is now on her own to face the entire intact Axis, Stalin and his regime are on their own, no Churchill, No Roosevelt, No Patton, No Montgomery, No RAF and USAAF bomber offensive, no allied landings, No Lend-Lease.

So the best of all worlds would be if the sea swallowed the UK and the USA, and the sun shined gloriously above the Reich, providing bountiful crops and excellent weather for unimpeded mining extraction.

The Arabian, etc. oil would be misteriously transferred to say Bavaria, and before going under the briny the USA would transfer it's entire automotive industry to the Ruhrgebiet.

Happy now?

This thread is a bit potty, isnt'it?

And don't say I invented this one, it comes straight from this forum's graphic files

Tomcat · #32 (**permalink**) July 21st, 2008, 08:47 AM

It seems to br getting more ficticious with ever post.

Joe · #33 (**permalink**) July 21st, 2008, 02:42 PM

I wish there more what ifs where more like T.A Gardener's!
(Please say I spelled his name right!)

Ones like this are just, well words cannot describe them.

Sloniksp · #34 (**permalink**) July 22nd, 2008, 05:42 AM

I cant believe this thread is still alive.....

All of the What-if's in here mentioned by some, have been addressed and disposed of with FACT and yet they somehow still manage to come afloat like some un-wanted turd.

Oh and those WHOLE 6 African divisions......

Tomcat · #35 (**permalink**) July 22nd, 2008, 06:48 AM

Someone certainly has an attitude problem don't they?

Za Rodinu · #36 (**permalink**) July 22nd, 2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Rundstedt

Spoken like a true Stalinite.

Now i understand this forum site, this site is dedicated to the one true fact.

The Soviet Union is the one true race of supermen.

Heil Stalin

Thank you for the kind words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Rundstedt

Must p1ss you off these "what if" forum sites, fancy letting the facts get in the way of a perfectly good yarn, it is simple my dear boy, if you don't like "What if" sites then don't read them, or respond to them, it is that simple ans allow us that do actually enjoy these sites get on with contributing to them, again it is that simple.

Thou shouldst not invoke Der Panzerpenguin in vain, but in the past he used to be rather sensitive to personal insult.

Slipdigit · #37 (**permalink**) July 22nd, 2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sloniksp

I cant believe this thread is still alive.....

I am too. Let's take a break from this exercise.