HI WHAT IF DDAY NEVER HAPPENED AND THE INVASION OF SOUTH ITALY THOUGH NORTH AFRICA NEVER HAPPENED TOO AND IF GERMANY MADE A PEACE WITH BRITAIN AND USA BUT NOT RUSSIA WOULD GERAMANY THROWING EVERY THING AT RUSSIA IN SAY 1944 INCLUDING ALL THE DIVISONS ON THE WESTERN FRONT AND FROM ITALY .WOULD GERMANY OF BEEN ABLE TO HOLD BACK THE RUSSIANS FOR ENOUGH TIME TO MAKE A FULL COUNTER ATTACK TOWARDS MOSCOW IN 1945 AND MAYBE WON THE WAR DID THE GERMANS HAV ANY CHANCE IF THAT HAPPENED OR WERE THEY STILL DOOMED.?

[ 16. March 2006, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: rifleman1987 ]

Sorry to say that they are still doomed.

Here is what I base my opinion on.

German industry could not produce as much as the Russians.

German armor was inferior to the Russian armor. The development of the Panther and Tiger were a response to the T34 and the KV tanks. These were new tanks that were being deployed to the Russian mechanized units. By 1944 they would have been fully equiped with these superior tanks.

In aviation the Luftwaffe had experience but the Russians had numbers, and much greater production.

Numbers, numbers, numbers.... the German forces could kill ten Russians for every German and still lose, then throw in that the Russians also had women in their armed forces in fighting roles and the odds get even worse.

Ideology also dooms the Germans. The people that they encountered in their advance could have become allied to their cause, especially in areas like the Ukraine. The Germans treated them like sub-humans instead. They pillaged and killed and mistreated them. This not only removed them as possible allies, it made them partisans and told everyone in their path that they might as well die fighting because they were going to die anyway.

The Germans had a strong military and experienced troops and generals, it would have been a long an bloody fight. The problem is the first part, it would be a long fight. Germany never geared up for a long fight. They had grown accustomed to easy victory with quick surrender. Their industry was not supportive of a long fight, their economy was not supportive of a long fight. They would run out of men and bullets and money and fuel long before the Russians would have.

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

THANKS FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTION.
ABOUT THE ANSWER TO THE LAST QUESTION ABOUT NUMBERS I THINK GERMANY HAD A POPULATION OF 80000000 PEOPLE AND RUSSIA 160000000 SO THAT MEANS 1GERMAN=2 RUSSIANS ABOUT U SAID THAT EVEN IF GERMANY KILLED 10RUSSIANS FOR EVERY LOSE OF 1 OF THEIRS THEY WOULD STILL LOSE WW2.BUT ANY HIGHER THAN THIS RATIO 1GERMAN FOR 2+ RUSSAINS WOULD MEAN RUSSIA WOULD RUN OUT FIRST. IS THIS RIGHT

[ 16. March 2006, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: rifleman1987 ]

The population figures are deceptive. Men-in-arms is what I was refering to. I don't know the figures exactly, so I may have exaggerated. But they did have them heavily outnumber, I think the Soviet military casualties were 20,000,000 and they still had plenty left.

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

I can not see in any way a peace term with Hitler was possible don't forget Hitler’s real war was with the Jews here's some timeline info -

June 30 and July 2 - The New York Times reports via the London Daily Telegraph that over 1,000,000 Jews have already been killed by Nazis.

Summer - Swiss representatives of the World Jewish Congress receive information from a German industrialist regarding the Nazi plan to exterminate the Jews. They then pass the information on to London and Washington.

Dec 17, 1942 - British Foreign Secretary Eden tells the British House of Commons the Nazis are "now carrying into effect Hitler's oft repeated intention to exterminate the Jewish people of Europe." U.S. declares those crimes will be avenged.

March 1, 1943 - In New York, American Jews hold a mass rally at Madison Square Garden to pressure the U.S. government into helping the Jews of Europe

With the info we had in the west could we really sit back and let this happen? Hitler had to be stopped at all costs.

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Regards, Richard

Hitler wanted to conquer Lebensraum in the east and destroy all untermeschen and jews.

Already before the WW2 begun in Germany alone tens of thousands ( in one document on tv 300,000 was the number mentioned ) disabled and mentally ill people were killed and sterilized. That was racial total war ( even if the deficits at birth are never genetic! ) So even if you´re German but had soemthign wrong with you like had 6 toes on both feet that could mean sterilization for you...

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Russia did not exist. Russia was not around. The SOVIET UNION on the other hand existed. The USSR had much more people than a measly 160 million people, more or less around 300 - 350 million. Also, they used woman while Germans did not. They did not use woman in the industry either (a few here and there but not much). So Germany had about 30 million fighting the war in total. 5 million directly, the other 25 million gearing up.

Russia did not exist. Russia was not around. The SOVIET UNION on the other hand existed. The USSR had much more people than a measly 160 million people, more or less around 300 - 350 million. Also, they used woman while Germans did not. They did not use woman in the industry either (a few here and there but not much). So Germany had about 30 million fighting the war in total. 5 million directly, the other 25 million gearing up. </font>[/quote]yeah looks like kindof got it mixed up with just russia stupid me but thanks for pointing that out.

i personnally think it wouldnt make much of a difference by the time that the soviets where on the oder & preparing to attack berlin they had a numercial advantage of 4-1. it also depends on what time they made peace but it could mean a soviet rule in germany & possibly even france, italy, greece, & a few other countrys.

i dont think that soviet pressure would allow the allies to make peace with the germans

Might we be neglecting the mention of use of slave labor used by Germany?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Assuming these numbers are right, you must remember that those Axis popuation or more in terms of military soldier numbers are not all in one section of the world, they are spread up across the continent defending many different points, and two other major fronts, both the Italian and French fronts. The Russian front is much larger then the others and against the Soviets, now the Russians can commit virtually all there forces to that one front giving them an extreme number advantage, regardless of total numbers.

Now for the what if side of this thread, even if it was just the Axis Vs the Soviets, then obviously all Axis forces would be on the Soviet fronts, now although now quite possibly having a number advantage militarily, they also need to arm all these men.

Germany, who would be the leader in the Axis alliance always faced man shortages, both for the military and civilian us, even with all the countires listed, and as they push further and further into Russia, means more supplies over longer distances, higher partisan activity, which means more mean positioned in the rear sections to defend there, which means less men on the front against the soviets, thus they lose there number advantage. Should we even start on mother nature?

I don't see how this scenario is much different from the real war, other then the use of many more divisions by the axis on the eastern front. I still think it will end the same, just with more loses to both sides.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

Perhaps if we added San Marino and Lichtenstein the balance would tip. Wait, there's the Principality of Monaco too!

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Don't forget the Duchy of Grand Fenwick LOL

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

For anyone to consider that Germany had a chance against the Soviet Union in 1944 is drastically in need of a reality check.

We must also take into account that large popultions alone mean very little in combat if they have no reason to fight. Germany was fighting for their flawed ideals, the Russians were fighting for their survival. Italy's large population was dragged into a war against their will and had no will to fight, therefore performed abysmal ( minus all the other reasons ofcourse ).

Not to mention that by D-day German had NO allies!

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

My friend, It seems that some here will try to grasp on to any hope or idea, no matter how far off from reality, that allows the Germans to win. Especially "What if?"s.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

But the Afrika corp would still be lost to the British, with the too little support from Germany.

You don't think that the Germans will still attempt a forcefull talking of Stalingrad? Which would still put there army in danger, although the city woudl probably fall this time, they still would face the same issues of supply and man power. Now what about the crossing of the volga?

What makes you think that German industries could keep up with their already lacking military this time? Many German Units were still using inferior weapons due to not be able to produce enough new military materials to replace the obselote ones, such as ww1 rifles and machine guns and old french tanks.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

Luxembourg! They don't even have an army but at a pinch they can squeeze out a Panzer division or three!

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That's an outright lie! Let's see:

Romania was "persuaded" to change sides in Aug 23 '44
Bulgaria Sept 9 '44
Hungary ? '44 (confused!)
Finland Sep 14 '44
Slovakia Aug 29 '44

So Germany had plenty of allies, problem is that the timing was somewhat wrong in what connects with Overlord and the Soviet Summer 44 offensives in Southern Europe.

See here and try to make some sense out of it Axis powers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a side note, according to Axis powers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Japan had a grudge against anybody except Jews

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We could also postulate that influenced by the Republican victory in the Spanish Civil War, fuelled by the Soviet war machine, Switzerland might suffer a Communist coup ("Cuckoo clock makers of the world, unite!") be persuaded to become an Ally, effectively cutting off all traffic between the Reich and Italy, and having territorial pretentions on Bavaria.

Also a Communist Spain would be quite interesting with again territorial pretentions on Vichy Provence, not to mention starting from Morocco and reaching for French Algeria and Tunisia, all fed, clothed, armed and supplied by the Lend-Lease Cornucopia.

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