WAT IF in 1943 at the battle of kursk germany manged to destroy the russian armys at kursk would the center army group with full priority of materials, fuel and ammunition of been able too advance towards moscow and encirle the russian capital.?

Advance towards Moscow, perhaps, but surround it, not possible. The Germans would then be creating their own salient for the Russians to bite off. At this point in the war, Germany could only conduct small offesives with limited goals. nothing more.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Impossible to win the battle, and to advance again impossible.

Welcome rifleman1987 if you go to the Russia at war forum your find a hell of a lot on this subject.

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Regards, Richard

The Germans "destroy the russian armys" (sic) at Kursk?!! Not possible. The best the Germans could have hoped for was simply a debilitating stalemate out of Kursk. The Soviets simply had far too much manpower and material there for the Germans to win outright.
See this other thread for a sample of the overwhelming amount of stuff the Soviets had:

Partial Kursk OOBs

Note, I mentioned that the complete Soviet OOB ran me 31..THIRTY ONE single spaced 12 point typed...pages!!!! This didn't even include the two additional Fronts to the north and south of the Kursk salient that led the Soviet counter offensive in late July early August that pushed the Germans back to nearly the pre-invasion borders!

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Truth is stranger than bullshit!

I believe if they attacked before the Soviets were ready, instead of all the delays for the unreliable tiger and panther tanks, it was possible.

Possibly, but then the Germans were not ready either...

If I may turn your argument upside down, I believe if the Soviets attacked - with the same OOB - before the Germans were ready, it was possible they were dining on the Reichstag steps in Winter 1943.

So what are what-ifs for?

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What about Manstine’s plan just to snip off the corner’s of the salient which he wanted to do before July?

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Regards, Richard

If the Germans had realized the amount of troops and armor they were facing at Kursk they would not have dreamt of any kind of offensives, I believe. Well, I guess maybe Hitler was the only one requesting the offensive in the end.

And like we´ve seen the Germans weren´t anywhere close to getting the salient closed so the "smaller solution" would not work either.

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I don't see how it would matter. The allies knew the German 'codes', knew exactly when/where it would happen.
Even barraged the German staging point before the attack.
And in Spring of '43, the Americans were now a threat.

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I say the only way Germany could effectivly win, even with the numbers involved was to attack early (they were ready, but Hitler and some Generals insisted in using the new highly untested Panther and tiger tanks and delayed by about a month) and kept the battle mobile instead of slugging it out like real life, they had a chance of victory. Also, I read in this one book that the Germans only used the codes to move divisions and decide on the plan on a large scale. The plan details per division and exact coordinates of the men on the ground were by radio.

The bad thing is that Hitler himself wanted to give orders almost to the company level if you exaggarate a bit. So all the detailed info was sent and could be known by Ultra. Also Hitler wanted to know of any plans of retrieval and only he could allow the troops to pull back. The Generals thus could not make fast decisions although I´m not sure how for example Model did so well. Maybe he had some extra freedom to make decisions and only afterwards tell Hitler.

Panzer6, I suppose you mean the possibility to continue the attack after the bad weather was over in April-May 1943. I think Manstein definitely was hoping to continue his operations then but one must remember that also the Red Army had time to regroup and get tanks/men. So it´s not so simple to think they could continue with the attack where they left it in March -43.

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YEAH I CANT BELIEVE THAT NO OTHER TANK ON THE WESTERN FRONT MATCHED THE ARMOR AND POWER OF THE TIGER AMAZING TO THINK THE WAY THEY COULD KILL 1 IS TO POINT BLANK RANGE UP THE REAR AND FIRE, MEAN WHILE THAT 1 TIGER HAS TAKEN OUT 2 SHERMANS .

The thing is the Sherman was mass produced and came off the assembly line quicker than a Tiger did. Result the Allies could afford to take the losses unlike the Germans.

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Regards, Richard

YEAH THATS TRUE BUT IF THEY DIDNT HAV THE NUMBERS THAN WOW THEY WOULD BE IN DEEP TROUBLE

The West had air supremacy.

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TRUE BUT SOM HOW DID THE GERMANS MANGED TO HIDE SO MANY TANKS IN THE BATTLE OF THE BULGE FROM THE ALLIED FIGHTERS OT BOMBERS

The Ardennes plan was never sent over radio,etc.The Germans were going through forests.

It was overcast in the beginning of the attack....no planes flying.
But this is getting off-topic.

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YEAH BUT BEFORE THE OPERATION HITLER MANGED TO SOMEHOW HIDE A LOT OF TROOPS AND TANKS READY FOR THE OPERATION

Rifleman - THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Lots of nice pictures on this link;

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/ww...03/page_01.htm

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

There is always the problem of fuel.
With out it the Germans had no chance.

yeah i think this means shouting. SHOUT!!!
AND THE REASON Y IM SO BAD AT SPELLING IS COS MY LEARNING ENGLISH THATS Y

rifleman1987 leaving your Caps Lock on is regarded as shouting and rude, but I guess you now got the message. As a suggestion if you have Office or Works use WORD both of them will have Word, write your posts out on either one of them and then you can spell check what you done. And when you done that then just copy it and paste it here in the forum. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Regards, Richard

Sigh!

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rifleman1987, going off topic but the Germans did not hide the men and tanks good enough at the battle of the bulge. The allies knew most of the equipment that was there. What they thought and what t