Maybe you could put the Pz IV in a sling and two Me 323s could lift it between them.....

Where's the rolling stock, hmm, somebody has a reading problem, it's already in place in Turkey & Armenia as outlined above. Why didn't the germans do it? Um, because Hitler was more interested in squashing the menace of the east. Raeder, Goering & Kesserlring did favor this southern strategy. Even Hitler agreed, but told Raeder it had to wait til after Barbarossa.

Za still upset about pink swastika? is that the motivation for your very *yawn* unimpressive feeble attempts at insultation? perhaps Stick to ski photography, you're a little better at that.

So Turkish and Armenia rolling stock consisted of flatbeds capable of ferrying large amounts of troops, tanks and supplies?

I do have a reading problem...

I cant read a load of balls.....

__________________
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Gentlemen, I think we have better things to do other than feeding the ego of somebody who has superglued himself to an idiotic idea. I suggest either that the Moderator will lock this thread which is too drastic and paying excessive attention to something unworthy, or we simply let it die the natural death.

Back to the Monty Python imagery, I'm reminded of the Black Knight who wouldn't change opinion after having all limbs chopped off

__________________

Just for you Za, go to the free fire forum.

__________________
Man of the Year 1942

Regards, Richard

So the trains successfully used in Russia by Germans did work, but Trains in Turkey wouldn't ? Hmm what an unusual thought process you have there Baron. Flat cars ferried over from Greece didn't occur to you then? Pretty easy to turn a regular car into a flat car anyways, tear off the roof & walls, & wa la, a flatcar. I'm sure the Turks had plenty of rolling stock, why would they expand their railroad between the wars if they had no rolling stock?

Quote; The Bosporus separates Europe from the Middle East. We crossed by car ferry in fifteen minutes. In the next two days we drove 300 miles to the capital city of Ankara. Many trucks (mostly military) and busses used this fairly good, partly mountainous, highway."

& Za your assumption that you've better knowledge than The German higher ups is amusing. & I realize words like idiot are big ones for you, but would also remind you not only of your repetitive rules violations, but also, your consistent rudeness to other posters.

If you have nothing academic to share regarding a thread, please use some gentlemenly behaviour & respect the your neighbors by passing on it.

This is a very polite way of requesting you grow up just a bit.

[ 27. July 2006, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: chromeboomerang ]

http://www.bevinalexander.com/excerp...der-hitler.htm

The Axis could move at will into the Middle East, for the British had no substantial forces there. Thus, not only would Syria and Palestine fall, but German panzers could seize Iraq and Iran with little effort.

The advance on the southern frontier of Turkey would put the Turks in an impossible position. Hitler was already in the process of gaining Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria as allies. Therefore, Turkey could be approached either by way of Bulgaria across the Bosporus at Istanbul or from northern Iraq and Syria. Turkey would be forced to join the Axis or grant passage for Axis forces and supplies. A defiant stance would result in the swift defeat of the Turkish army and disaster.

Why would Germany want to invade Middle east when they could have Soviets vast resoures.?

Um, the point of invading middle east was to get the Soviet oil in Baku. & Yes Soviets had 6-12 month reserve which would be partially used up defending Baku.

& if battle occurred in north, Poland Romania etc, rest would be used up quick & Russia would have to concede. Lend Lease could do nothing to solve Soviet fuel situation, or very little.

Ok, so answer Chromeboomerang what would you do if the Soviets destroyed the oil fields so that it would take at least 2 years to get some oil pumped. Your big army would just be an easy target in the middle of nowhere,right? It might lead the USSR into trouble but your army would be twice that much in trouble.

Hitler thought he could get Maikopi and the oil and he got Maikopi but no oil in 1942-43. So the operation was actually totally useless in the end if you look at it. And he almost lost 300,000 men in the Caucasus area as well because he would not let them retreat until early 1943.

__________________

They would destroy equipment, but they can't destroy a field. If you have a link demonstrating your 2 year theory, that would be good, otherwise seems like speculation. Oil equipment can be replaced-repaired etc.Iraq proved that.

Regarding Maikop, they barely had 6 months of occupancy there, 3 months of it during winter, ( well 2 anyway, Dec-Jan ), & it was much smaller than other locations.

"Maikop yielded to German exploitation. As was the case in all areas of Russian production, the retreating forces had done a thorough job of destroying or dismantling the usable installations; consequently, the Germans had to start from scratch. In view of past experience with this type of Russian policy, such destruction was expected, and Field Marshal Hermann Göring’s staff had begun making the necessary preparations in advance. But a shortage of transport that was competing with military requirements, a shortage of drill equipment as well as drillers, and the absence of refining capacity at Maikop created such difficulties that when the German forces were compelled to withdraw from Maikop in January 1943"


Operation not useless as it denies Soviets it's oil while Ploesti remains intact. That means Germans still have useable source, Soviets don't. Which means land battles on steppes "can" be pursued by Germans, but not by Soviets. & without doubt, Germans would make bigger effort at Baku than was done at Maikop. & with campaign successful, the problem of transport craft competing with military needs would not be near as acute.

Army easy target? who would be the attacker? Oiless Russians? or underequipped British?

Well, it took six months in Kuwait 1991 to cap the fires.

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/owf_ii/owf_ii_tabc.htm

And like you yourself found:

"But a shortage of transport that was competing with military requirements, a shortage of drill equipment as well as drillers, and the absence of refining capacity at Maikop..." does not make it much easier I guess.

And even if the army was not attacked if it doesn´t have oil and cannot move it is an easy target for anybody and useless as well.

__________________

But it did have oil, Ploesti.

http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories...s/32_ww22.html

& like you said, an army with no oil can go nowhere.

According to a report submitted on February 22, 1940, by General Gamelen to French Prime Minister Daladye, since Baku provided 75% of all oil requirements of the USSR, he believed the Soviets would fall into crisis if those sources were lost. "Dependence on oil supplies from the Caucasus is the fundamental weakness of Russian economy. The Armed Forces were totally dependent on this source also for their motorized agriculture. More than 90% of oil extraction and 80% of refinement was located in the Caucasus (primarily Baku). Therefore, interruption of oil supplies on any large scale would have far-reaching consequences and could even result in the collapse of all the military, industrial and agricultural systems of Russia."

& as for Maikop, it did begin to produce, & no doubt would have increased dramatically in the ensuing months.

Even under normal conditions, Maikop's production was only one tenth that of Baku's. However, before withdrawing from the city, the Russians had thoroughly destroyed the oil fields and supplies and equipment, right down to the small incidental tools of the workshops. Consequently, by January 1943, the Germans were able to eke out no more than 70 barrels per day there (Yergin, 336-337).

Ploesti could not supply the operation in Autumn 1942 ( only one Army group as there were three attacking in 1941 ) so how could it supply the operation further away in the Middle East?

And for 6 months work 70 barrels/day. Does not look good, does it? If the Germans had got the oil from Ploesti 100% in 1942 the German troops might have reached Stalingrad much earlier but without the oil, panzers were stuck.

In 1940 USSR was still an ally to Germany. The French and British planned to bomb Baku and thought they could destroy it totally that way (?!) So the Gamelin theory has its roots there. In 1942 the allied would have helped with oil from their sources, not Germany. It still leaves Germany empty handed if Baku area oil fields had been blown.

__________________

Ploesti "did" supply the operation in autumn 42, made it all the way to Stalingrad & even Mt Elbrus. What on earth are you talking about?! & southern route would require much less than a full scale Barbarossa would have.


Empty handed? with Austrian fields & their own domestic production as well Ploesti in tow?

70 barrels was the beginning, how good it would have looked a few months later is unknown. & germans would have gotten Baku under way in 6 months or so, not the grossly innacurate 2 yrs you have speculated.

& Za might've been right about the Germans skiing...

German troops of the Sixth Army had reached the Volga just north of Stalingrad on August 23. Two days before, the
swastika had been hoisted on Mount Elbrus, the highest peak (18,481 feet) in the Caucasus Mountains.

That should put the final nail in the 'impassable terrain' concept.

Here's modern map of area, shows roads & distance is calculable with index. Not very far from Armenia to Baku. With Armenian rail system in tow, transport looks not too tough.

http://www.geo.ya.com/travelimages/az-road-map.gif

Ploesti did supply something:

Progress was slow because fuel was rationed and Army Group A were given priority. At the end of July 1942, a lack of fuel brought Paulus to a halt at Kalach. It was not until 7th August that he had received the supplies needed to continue with his advance.

On 18th August, Paulus, now only thirty-five miles from Stalingrad, ran out of fuel again.

When fresh supplies reached him, Paulus decided to preserve fuel by move forward with only his XIV Panzer corps.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERpaulus.htm

__________________

The highest volume of oil produced in the Baku area in the twentieth century was achieved in 1941, 23.4 million tonnes produced and delivered to the front line free of charge.

The number of working wells declined sharply in the autumn of 1942. Eighty-one complete drilling rigs with their personnel were moved to Turkmenistan. Total capital investment in the oil industry was reduced fivefold by 1942 and more than ninefold a year later. Special preparations were also made to destroy oil installations and reserves.

On the other hand, a rapid increase in Soviet aircraft and armoured personnel carriers required growing fuel supplies which had to be secured at any cost.

This meant oil producers in Baku were squeezed between a sharp reduction in industrial facilities and rising demand. To deal with the problem, Baku’s engineering and equipment manufacturing plants were obliged to renew and diversify their production.

Old machinery was rebuilt and put back into operation. With no new wells being drilled, the working ones were squeezed to the last drop.

Although total oil output in 1942 was much smaller than a year before, 15.8 million of the 21.9 million tonnes produced in the USSR came from Baku. Comparable volumes in 1943 were 12.7 and 17.9 million tonnes.

Another problem was oil transport, which mostly went by sea. (?)

http://www.statoil.com/STATOILCOM/sv...256FBF002A4235

__________________

Far be it from me to challenge an 'academic' such as yourself, Mr Chromebone, but what about this...

You mention Turkey and Armenia?

Well the two would not co-operate and would more than likely enter into open war with each other in such a situation due to the massacres committed by the Turks in WW1 against the Armenia population and thus they would resist any invasion especially a German one with Turkish allies very ferociously.

And one other thing... If we are going 'academic'...


What use is a modern map?

Surely you want a 1930's map of the Armenian road system to prove anything...

__________________
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

So why do these forums have a 'what if' section when any 'what if' question or suggestion gets the same dismissive/agressive response every time??
Just a thought.....

Cheers,
Adam.

__________________
It's only the Internet.

I think what if here looks at more possible situations unlike pure, well I shall leave it at that.

__________________
Man of the Year 1942

Regards, Richard