what if france puts a stronger fight against the germans in 1940, what if lets say there is a stalemate similar to that of WWI, does Hitler keep sending more troops to the west or does he still focus his attention on the east, this scenario from what I have read isn't that impossible because it seems french morale was the real key to the french defeat as opposed to military strength so if the french had higher morale a stalemate seems possible.

The French Elan had nothing to do with the defeat of France in 1940. There are other threads that discuss this issue.

The French doctrine was outdated. The idea of having a picketline on the borders suited the german doctrine of a concentrated attack.

Later in the campaign the French started to use the Hedgehog system in defence, offering more depth. The damage had already been done. The reserves were empty and the lack of cohesion made it impossible to have any form of grip on the forces.

You are quite right in acessing that the French had plenty of military strength, but the top men failed to weld it into an effective weapon.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Hitler would not fight the two-front war because that was considered the reason for losing the WW1.

Only after the war in the west would be over could Hitler turn to east, but then again, it might the Red Army already over the borders by then...

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Given the facts numbers etc how successful would the red army be if they invaded Germany whilst the war in the west still raged on.?

The red army would have wiped Germany out, if they'd attacked while Germany was invading France (which gives only a short time pattern lol)
(Exactly the same as if France had pushed into Germany during the invasion of Poland in fall 1939.)

But we can doubt the Red army was able to execute a large scale deep offensive at this time, it took them time to learn how to do this, and they learnt it the hard way.

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Police cars carry three agents. The first one can read, the second one can write and the third one keeps watch on those dangerous intellectuals.
Unknown subversive activist - 20th century.

That would likely be the Mother of All Bungles

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chocapic,

Dont think that France was in any shape to launch an offensive against Germany...If im not mistaken most of their economic resources went into the maginot line as a defence....as a result the French lacked the offensive capabilites that their counterparts didnt ( Germany )

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

In the words of Otto Von Bismark...." Germany must never go to war with Russia, nor must Germany ever fight a two front war "

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

It is possible that the Germans might have failed to take France outright in 1940; slim, but possible.

The biggest hit against the French was their absolutely abysimal military doctrine of the period called Methodical Battle. The French army under this doctrine was so lethargic and plodding in reacting to events it almost ensured they would lose any sizable action they fought.
However, with the premise that the Germans and French (with their allies) stalemate at some point I would suspect the following would occur:

* The French Air Force would be eliminated as a useful arm within weeks at most.

* If the Italians enter the war then a second theater opens up and the war quickly widens into North Africa. The Germans would almost certainly have to get involved to prop up Italy.

* The Belgium and Holland fall and surrender putting them out of the war.

* The French and British continue to suffer defeats in battle; particularly the French.

* The Germans open additional fronts by breaking the Rhine defense portion of the Maginot Line while the French are continually having to pull supporting troops from that portion of the country to prop up their army elsewhere.

* Cities like Paris come in for heavy aerial bombardment. This forces the British to commit far more aircraft to France.

* The British lose outright far more of the BEF through casualties and surrender in positions where they could not withdraw by sea.

I doubt that the Soviets would have tried to begin an offensive of their own. Stalin was far better off maintaining the non-agression pact with Germany than getting involved in a war with the massive problems the Red Army had in terms of orgainzation, leadership, manpower, et. al.
If anything, France staying the war for say another year would have more severly sapped the British than what actually occured. France would likely still eventually have fallen, but in the interm the British would have had to send large numbers of men and equipment to France in an attempt to stem that defeat. With Italy in the war as well the British would be very hard pressed to send any large contingent to Africa to counter the Germans there.
In addition, the Germans and Italians might have made an effort immediately to invade and take French states in North Africa like Alegeria etc. France would be further stretched to provide a defense there. There are a number of new outcomes that might result from any of the above.

I agree with TA. I however just dont see how France would of lasted for that long. I also think that the Maginot line was a huge blunder for the French especially considering that since Belgium and holland were neutral there was a gap, which the Germans used to flank the French troops.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

haha, the maginot line was fascinating....but hitler just waltzed past it seemingly...

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"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." -Winston Churchill

Hitler didn't Waltz.
He was more of a Riverdance man.

Sorry. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Adam.

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"Wars cannot be fought with dream stuff" - Sir Percy Hobart.

lol, whatever you say...

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"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." -Winston Churchill

France put to much faith in the maginot line.

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Regards, Richard

I agree Richard but the one thing that I cant seem to figure out is how France couldnt imagine that Hitler wouldnt be playing into the hands of France but would just go around it. I guess that an unfair question now cause things back then were much different and know one really knew what Hitler was up to but still.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

The Magniot Line actually served its purpose fairly well. The actual line stood up well to several major German attacks later in the original campaign. None of the Gros Overages were serious threatened or taken by these attacks. Where the line was penetrated it was due more to the interval troops having been withdrawn to fight elsewhere.
The Rhine defenses however, were overcome by use of direct fire from 88 and 105mm AA guns. The French overall plan to move forward and set up a defensive line in Belgium was a workable plan. What caused it to fail was simply the French operational doctrine. That same doctrine caused the defeat at Sedan and allowed the Germans to essentially win the campaign.
In the air, the French Air Force was flying and fighting in a campaign all but disconnected from ground operations. The Luftwaffe, with better doctrine (not outstandingly better but good enough) and far more tactical and operational experiance shot the French to pieces.
The Magniot Line in and of itself really had little to do with France losing or winning the 1940 campaign.

It would depend on what caused the stalemate proposed, you cant assume German superiority if they have just been stopped in their tracks.

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Whe're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ - 6 Australian Infantry Div, Bardia January 1941

No, the faith the French put in the Maginot line was entirely justified. So much so that the Germans decided to attack elsewhere.

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No, the faith the French put in the Maginot line was entirely justified. So much so that the Germans decided to attack elsewhere. </font>[/quote]dialectics...

@Sloniksp : in sept 1939, on German west side there were only 11 divisions and 23 reserve divisions, facing 85 French divisions.

On september the 7, some 4 French armies entered Germany, virtually unopposed, the Siegfried line was mostly unifinished and unmanned.

Should they have pushed and they would achieve some results, but the lack of will of the government + the SUREALISTIC stupidity of military leaders put an end to it, and they were ordered to retreat on september the 30, after just hanging around 10 km ahead of the frontier for a whole month

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Police cars carry three agents. The first one can read, the second one can write and the third one keeps watch on those dangerous intellectuals.
Unknown subversive activist - 20th century.

Interesting point Chocapic.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

if the French marched in 36 they had more of a numerical superiorty than in 40 what would have happened then.

I guess in 36, Germany would have been crushed by any French and / or British determined attack, and Hitler would have been held responsible for this by the Germans.

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Police cars carry three agents. The first one can read, the second one can write and the third one keeps watch on those dangerous intellectuals.
Unknown subversive activist - 20th century.