Dont be strangers let me hear your opinions

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

In my opinion, the reason the war was declared on Russia was to bring Britain to terms or atleast wait and train the troops for a naval invasion on Britain. If he would've captured Moscow, It would've been a big blow to the world and for sure, America and Britain would be defeated considering the fact that he would take over all that oil and resources and basically capture the North East part of the world. Having that in mind, the capture would benefit the German industry innumerously and they would have all the resources needed to finish off the Allies.

In the opinion of Mar. Timoshenko, "that is obviously a grave disappointment for us, but it by no means disrupts our grand strategy. Germany would gain accommodation [that is, shelter from the cruel Russian winter], but that alone will not win the war. The only thing that matters is oil. As we remember, Germany kept harping on her own urgent oil problems in her economic bargaining with us from 1939 to 1941. So we have to do all we can (a) to make Germany increase her oil consumption, and (b) to keep the German armies out of the Caucasus."

This has been discussed before here a few months ago, please see the thread:

http://www.ww2forums.com/cgi-bin/ubb...c;f=3;t=000369

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60 years later and it is still true ! Oil production is all that matters. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img] Our idiot politicians won't do anything until the last drop is milked from the earth.

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

No truer words were ever said.
Well said TA152.

If Hitler captured Moscow, Army Group Centre would had suffered terrible losses which could never be fully replaced. But in the cold light of day from 22nd June to the fall of Moscow everything would had gone like clockwork and that never happens.

[ 22. September 2006, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Richard42 ]

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Regards, Richard

Interesting I see that we think alike. Sorry for the duplicate thread, I thought I was being creative.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

If I remember right Hitler had great plans for Russia everything from colonies to enslaving the Russian peoples.I couldn't see berlin and toyko touching hands somewhere in siberia.I think Rommels grand strategy was to get at the oil fields in the mid east and through africa and the caucusias I hate my spelling.

Tom I know how you feel I hate spelling too.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

I believe if Moscow was taken before the winter of 41 then ww2 would turn out very differant for the Germans better and for worse.

better:The heart of the soviet union disabled,loss of most of the Soviet leadership structure,the greatest German victory of the war so far.

Worse:lose of life for the Germans would be vast and the only way they could replace such loses would be to strip most of the front of Germans.This would cause severe problems for the German generals as Germany simple has no where near the manpower as the Sovits have.

Yes, but also keep inmind that Napolean captured Moscow and and solved absolutely nothing. Hitlers supply lines were stretched to their capacity before he reached moscow. Do you think he could off advanced any further?? If not dont you think that the German army would off suffered the safe fate the French army suffered under Napolean?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

If Stalin did stay in Moscow and the Germans captured it then it would be a different story. Also I think if Stalin had fled in late 1941 he might have lost it all.

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Interesting kai.....then again tzar Alexender fled Moscow right before it fell to Napolean. You dont think the same thing might of happended if Stalin did the same thing?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

The Napoleonic war in Russia has no bearing on Hitler's campaign . The tech. state of the Wehrmacht would not have the disadvantages that faced Nepolean's Grand Army. Plus Russia is much more built up in WW2 and the loss of its main rail hub would have hampered the Russians greatly. Also Napolean was not occuping most of european Russia at the time he took Moscow. This let the Czar concentrate on one axis of attack ,while WW2 Russia would still have to deal with the other sectors while trying to retake Moscow.

May I differ? The overwhelming majority of the so-called mighty Wehrmacht, some 120 divisions out of 150, went into the Soviet Union using the same 'technology' than the Emperor's men 129 years before; that is: marching on their feet and using horses to drag their guns and supplies.

If we add to the equation that, by the time Army Group 'Centre' reached Moscow, the logistical system was collapsed and most units were down to 50% or less of their original strenght... Guderian wrote that there were some 300 spare tank engines for the entire Wehrmacht in the East.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Excellent point General!!!

also John unlike Napoleans army Wehrmacht had to deal with a lot more resistence behind their lines. Infact just the partisans of Belarus were estimated in killing over 250,000 germans throught the entire campaign. I wont even count how many railways and power lines they destroyed. What do you think would off been different with Germans occupying Moscow then the French? The Germans just like the French wouldnt be able to advance any further in fact the Germans suffered from the same problems that the French suffered from. Cold, hunger and the lack of mobility and movement played a devistating role, not to mention the Russian resiliance that played a small role. Hitlers lines were too thinly stretched when he was Stalingrad, Moscow is a little further with downed railways, horrible weather and the scorched earth policy the Wehrmacht woudnt of been able to get resupplied which would of just resulted in Russian counter attacks...........My opinion at least.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Why did the germans rely on horse and cart so much for supplies when they could of flown in supplies direct from Germany and take some of the stress of the supply line.?

The amount of supplies needed per day is so huge, MGN, that the flown amounts could never make any remarkable amounts needed really. Was it some 60 supply trains PER DAY for the whole front needed for basic requirements only (?). And then again the weather must be ok for the planes to fly.

Of course some planes were used for this but in larger amount totally hopeless. Just like Stalingrad showed. And that was only one Army group!

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also German planes were always in danger of being shot down, especially the more they got into Russian lands. Whether it was by flack or Russian fighters

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

The logistical planning of the invasion of the Soviet Union was very poor and I suspect the Germans did not at the time of planning Barbarossa plan for the long term probably due to there belief Blitzkrieg had worked for them so far why should it fail in Russia. I suspect the German high command took into account the Soviet army purges and the war with Finland and saw that Russia could be taken no later than 1942. The Germans underestimated the Soviet Union’s man power and the will too fight on in those last dark months of 1941, by year’s end they pulled off the first big victory saving Moscow.

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Regards, Richard

Have read that compared to the planning of the attack in the west 1940 operation Barbarossa was totally a hastily drawn plan. Maybe they did think you need no detailed plans against the "subhumans"!

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There were several outline plans, and one was chosen. Also the scope was immensely larger, so it was physically impossible to draw a detailed plan from the border to Irkutsk, for this OKH or any other. The plan actually went in some detail from the border to Minsk, but then afterwards you would need a second plan which did not exist, only general intentions and a Hitler directive. So the General Staff was living more or less on a day to day basis, complicated by some field commanders sense of independence, the worst of them being Guderian.

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