Hilter had a tough decision, on where to concentrate his interests. To go East, or to get the UK out of the mediterranean. Hitler's Generals wanted to do the latter, but Hitler wanted no part of it.

Do you think that this would of saved the german defeat or just postponed it.

and 2nd, do you think that they would of been able to capture Malta and Gibraltar?

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Facta non verba. "Deeds, not words"

If Germany had gotten permission from Spanish President General Francisco Franco to allow six divisions (1 x Panzer, 4 x Infantry and 1 x Mountain)and subsequent air cover to transit through Spain they would have captured Gibraltar quite easily.

Malta is another thing all together, it would have been achieved but at a high cost but the Germans could not have done it alone the Italians would certainly have to provide ground troops and almost all logistical support.

But once those two objectives had been achieved one more target to secure the Mediterranean and that is Cyprus then once it is secured the Axis could use Cyprus as a marshalling point for a direct invasion of Egypt and the Suez Canal, this might have had the effect of a pro axis General Anwar Sedat staging a coup in Egypt.

Once Egypt is secured and the last of the British are out of the Mediterranean it could have swayed Spain, Norway and Vichy France into the Axis cause and this could have had a knock on effect of a coalition launching a massed invasion of Britain.

Norway? The year must be 1939 then or early 1940?

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That's what I was thinking Roddoss72 !!

It could of been a major flip of momentum for the Germans! With the UK out of the picture in the Mediterranean, it would of opened up another front to attack Mother Russia. It think it would of been the better of the 2 choices to do. If they had of done it that way, It could turn the tides of WW2 in favor of the Germans.

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Facta non verba. "Deeds, not words"

It is amost common knowledge for most,that one of Hiltler's biggest blunders was going to war with Stalin before finishing with with U.K. ( second front )

Without a doubt, the war for Soviet Union would have been much harder then it already was. However saying that Hitler would have won sounds more of a " what if ". Since this has never happend all we are left with is speculation and obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinon.

My opinion is still no [img]graemlins/hsu.gif[/img] . Germany would have still lost, it would have just taken more time and lives to beat the invader back. Also I cant imagine the tide of war turning in favor of the Germans more then it already has in 41' to 42'.
What else could the Germans have done in Russia with the U.K. out of the war?? Throw in another 25 to 30 divisions??

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

It will always be "no" for the germans! But MAYBE owning the Mediterranean in late 41 and early 42 could of fired events that you and wouldn't of thought possible. A weird example is that the UK strikes a "white peace" with Germany, or Spain gets forced into the Axis. I don't know..just saying "no" to something like this is to easy of an answer.
This is the "what if" Thread right?

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Facta non verba. "Deeds, not words"

One problem with Spain allowing the Germans to use their territory to launch an attack on Gibralter is that it implicates Spain. Spain would almost certainly end up at war with Britain as a result. This gives the Germans a new headache. Do they no invade Portugal to secure the coast and prevent its use as a staging area for the British? How much effort will be necessary to secure the Spanish coast against an Allied invasion?
Almost certainly on balance it is a negative outcome for Germany to involve Spain in the war.

Unless ofcourse Spain decided to invade Portugal


( My coment does not warrant a response )

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Portugal would be a walkover for anyone, but the consequence of an Iberian adventure would be the need to occupy two countries in very very weak economic condition - imagine Roumania without the oil - entirely dependent on an economy of subsistence and dependent on imports for oil and coal. One can live on sardines and olive oil (and octopus ) only up to a point, after that it's starvation.

Also remember that Spain was just out of a bloody civil war, there were alot of guns around, and for some reason the French invasions had caused what was called the Spanish Ulcer. Not a good idea. More troops required for occupation, a great coast to invade, more Atlantic Wall to be built.

Not worth it.

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I would agree

( even though I did say that my comment did not warrant a response )

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

In fact Germany at the time of Operation Overlord had 145 divisions serving other than on the Eastern Front, could you imagine an additional 145 divisions against the Soviets, this could have been done had the Germans and Axis forces had carried out a combined invasion of Britain in 1940. Oh and to enlighten you this is a "What If" section of the Forum site if you did not know that already.

At the time of planned Overlord Germany had more divison on the west then the east. After the invasion was called of. More then 3 million German troops were then sent to the easter front for operation Babarossa. Keep in mind that if U.K. fell Germany would still need to keep troops on the island in case of resistance, just like in France and other countries not to mention in Africa.

Here is a chart of German devisions in the war.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7288

notice the emmediate increase of troops in the East by late 41' till the end.

This site is provided by none other then our very own Von Poop!! [img]graemlins/hsu.gif[/img]

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Norway could not have been 'swayed' to the Axis cause. I think that both Spain and Vichy would refuse too.

The voulenteers in the Legion and the Waffen SS divisions was promised to fight in Finland against the USSR.

There is no way that the Norwegians would 'fahren gegen Engeland'.

Spain was ravaged after a bitter civil war, and Vichy was no coherent country.

The three countries could only supply voulenteers. (wich they all did anyways)

A massive navy to overcome the British Navy, and extra aircraft to win Air Superiority was not within the power of these nations.

A vaste.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Hitler winning the war would have more to do with small decisions than the big ones. Not going against Russia was a major decision that should have been made. Small decisions like developing and producing bombers and fighters with enough range to be effective against Britain, not bombing London and staying focused on the munition factories, developing landing craft, and hundreds of other choices that could have made a difference.

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Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

Mtns between Spain & France is all the "atlantic wall" they would need. Advantages outweigh disadvantages. Portugal offers many good ports for German navy. & extra airbases to keep British navy at bay.

Not to mention the vehicles & drainable fuel.