Well, I think the allies would actually be more than upset. I think they would have tried to push on to Berlin and Moscow (Especially Patton ) . Something else: What about a new front after a U.S. + Canadian invasion via Alaska ?

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Man....So according to this scenario the Allies are now at war with Germany and its allies, Russia and its allies and Japan.

Wonder what the outcome might be?

I am also curious to find out how far Patton might have gone into Russia?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Patton would probably not be able to get through Germany before the end of 1945, but in such a terrible situation, which would only happen to the allies because they had no choice, they would have no alternative than using another atomic bomb on Germany. A seperate peace could then be attempted with Germany and the allies could maybe get to Russia from both sides. Of course I never said that they would win.. But I believe they would at least give it a try.

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So, let's see; Stalin reaches a seperate peace with Hitler sometime in early 1944 and likely before the Normandy invasion (Bargration and the Soviet 44 summer offensive would have only emboldened Stalin to continue given its success). For the Western Allies this would have been a MAJOR slap in the face after the Yalta conference. I have little doubt that the Soviets would have found themselves cutoff from lend-lease materials virtually immediately.
Such an agreement would also have reprecussions on the Pacific war. Does the Soviet Union declare war on Japan? If so, does the US grudgingly give lend-lease support? Would the Soviets declare war on Japan if the US withdrew this support?
If the Soviets do attack Japan they will very likely overrun a big chunk of China in short order. The Japanese are unlikely to surrender just because of this. Do US and US supported Chinese forces have relationship problems with the Soviets? For instance, the 20th AF flying B-24 and B-29s against targets in China and Japan might now be flying over Soviet controlled areas. How does the US coordinate their activities with the reticent Soviets (they were this way historically) who also view any aircraft and crews that emergancy land in their territory as virtually potential enemies?
In Europe the Western Allies likely would have continued the war to a conclusion. The Germans likely win the vaporized city award instead of the Japanese who come in a close second a bit later on. How much more mobilization would the US Army have to make to fight the majority of Germany's army later in 1944 and into 1945. Certainly, the US has the potential to raise far more divisions that they did but, this takes time.
What would the trade situation between Russia and Germany be? Would Stalin be willing to trade at all given that Germany was just a war with them? Do Romania, Hunguary, and other eastern nations that are allied with Germany continue to fight at all?
I suspect that the Allies might postpone their invasion for another few months while continuing their operations in Italy. Strategic bombing and the air campaign snuffs the Luftwaffe just as it did. The negligible contribuiton of Eastern Front aircraft making no difference.
Jets? By Jan - Feb 1945 both sides have useful flying models. The German ones have a pitifully short operational life due to poor manufacturing quality and lack of resources to make reliable jet engines.
Ballistic and guided missiles? The US could go ahead with a plan to fire 5000+ copies of the V-1 into Germany per month starting in October or November 1944 (yes, they actually considered this and Ford Motor Company was getting tooled up to do just this). The V-2 is surpassed in early 1945 by Convair's MX 774 while Germany's program is about maxed out at its original level.
The British and US manage by 1945 to achieve balance in the tank game with their M 26, M 34, Comet, and Centurian and related vehicles.
The ASW campaign still turns out in favor of the Allies. Yes, the Type XXI makes a dent, but the Allies improve their capabilities to counter it as well.
On the whole, the Western Allies still defeat Germany. Since Stalin stopped short of taking Poland and Eastern Europe these nations remain in the West's pocket rather than as Soviet puppet states.
China would likely still have a falling out with the Soviets by the 60's. Japan would still surrender to the US in the end. The Soviets lack the means to actually invade the Japanese home islands making their participation limited to China if the Soviets choose to participate in the Pacific war at all.
I see such an option as a losing situation for the Soviets all around. They are in a far weaker position postwar than they were historically.

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Truth is stranger than bullshit!

Anouther aspect to consider is that Churchill's party lost the election and FDR dies during the war. Do you think Truman and Churchill's replacement have the political power to convince the people at home to continue the war without the USSR ?

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Very interesting T.A. There would even be an alternative. By sending V2 type rockets (manufactured by Ford) to Germany, a nuclear bomb could be avoided and maybe force Germany to surrender and therefore send less infantery and Airforce that could be saved for elsewhere. Also once Gemrany would surrender rockets could be send to Russia from Prussia/Poland and other countries that would not want to be rules by the Soviets.

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I thought according to this scenario, after the Germans agree to peace, Russia moves into previously conquered Soviet territory ( poland )
and keeps Eastern Europe in its possession.

Am I mistaken??

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Russia would move west until Eastern Poland (the Brest Littow Border ) Lwov + the Baltic countries, not Western Prussia (Posen) . I suppose the Germans would want to keep the General Govenrment and the annexed territories. They would probably have to give up some smaller territories such as Pleskau, Memel etc.. but Russia would probably be more interested in taking over Romania and it's oil fields (and blackmail Germany with gas supplies, just in case) and Bulgaria without a fight. I would guess Western Poland would be a buffer zone to prevent new agressions.

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OK that is what I thought as well ( territory wise )

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Yes but there is one thing that still bothers me. How could Hitler and Stalin trust each other after all this fighting? The first one who would turn his back would be attacked again, soon or late.

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I agree.........then again this is a "what if" thread soooooo I just smile and nod

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

It's just funny imaging what could have happened, there are so many criteria that would have changed this "what if" a thousand times, but it's just nice to think about different situations and I enjoy these talks.

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Whilst we can't do much about Rosevelts death, if the war was continuing I'm not so sure Churchill would have been voted out. Atlee was voted in to help with post war Britain, but if the war wasn't over, who knows....

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

I agree , Churchill was a warrior, not a peace time politician and was popular as long as the war went on. He would have been essential to boost the morale of both civilians and soldiers.

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I'm not sure if Churchill could survive a political backlash, with Russia now at peace with Germany granted one hell of a fragile peace. Churchill would had a heck of a hard time to stay in office, as some political persons could use this as a opportunity to throw a spanner in the works resulting in a possible political change.

From the American point of view would America turn up the heat on the political front and call for some sort of cease fire? Another issue here or so would the plotters against Hitler gone ahead with an assassination attempt?

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Regards, Richard

There back this Xmas 2008

But who would be able to carry such a heavy burden then? Perhaps a newcomer? There were some good military leaders but they were needed where they were.

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Could the Allies invade France without Soviet participation???

Very interesting...... At the time of the invasion the Atlantic wall had minimal garrison as most men were needed for the the war in the East. Yes there were panzer's available for support, but in comparison to the east, were in very few numbers same goes for the infantry. Also the skies over western Europe were free of the Luftwaffe. Could it have been done you ask?

My answer is that anything is possible, however where, when and how would this have been done? Most importantly is how many more resources and men would have been lost in order to accomplish this great task?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Well, it all depends whether the Soviets would quit early 1944 or just before D-Day. Those six months have exhausted Germany and these highly experienced troops could otherwise have served in Normandy. I have the example of an elite Fallschimjäger Unit. Those guys survived Africa, then were based in France but were sent to Russia in June 1944, whereas they were desperately needed in Normandy

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Yes Skipper67, I am going to agree. By this time the Soviet war machine was unstoppable. With an extra 6 months of fighting on the eastern front by 1944 could easily have amounted to an extra million Germans casualties that would have been desperately needed for the West. So yes this is an important question.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Another aspect. Suppose the Germans and the Russians cease fire, even if they do not become allies. This would allow Krupps and other companies to spare steel for U-boote and a new Atlantic battle would start.

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