|
|  |
 |
Members: 6,450
Threads: 18,400
Posts: 230,107
Online: 251
Newest Member:
jrhess3 |
|
|
| What If? Alternate History: Speculate about WWII battles that never were. Could the Axis have won? What if Hitler had the bomb? |

March 1st, 2007, 09:07 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 19
Salute!: 0
Saluted 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
|
Re: How Sealion could have been made workable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner
The "large bomb ship" idea is definitely a non starter. The US in the 60's and 70's did several tests using large amounts of explosives to simulate nuclear bomb blasts for testing ship structures. These were done in the Pacific and I have photos of some of them somewhere.
Anyway, the explosives had to be arranged in a very precise "igloo" shape and carefully detonated to ensure that everything went off at the same time. Doing this within a ship with no previous engineering or other design and testing is just not going to work.
Aside from the practical, engineering aspect the Germans were short on munitions almost from the start of the war. Wasting 10,000 tons of high explosives would have cost them a month or more of their production of munitions just to procure. This was something they were hardly going to be willing to do.
Then there is the usefullness of such a project at all. First, you need the British to cooperate and place a sizable fleet near enough to be effected. If we take tests Able and Baker as a baseline the return on such a project if it has any at all will be just a handful of ships; maybe 4 or 5 at the most optimistic, probably less. Other ships might be damaged but will certainly be repaired. So, even from a military standpoint it will not have much benefit.
|
Ok, so somebody did try it, allthough after the war... (If you have a link it would be appreciated)
I see now that it's not as straightforward as I thought, but why do you think it would take the Germmans a full month to create that amount of explosives? During active war campain periods they were spending that amount every two -tree days...
As to the number of ships sunk I agree with your estimate - it's more or less what the bikini island test showed. However many more ships would be damaged (or crews dazzled) and probably unable to fight effectively so the LW could get them immediately afterwards.
Also there could be propaganda effect - imagine the Germans claiming that they created an atomic bomb - RN could withdraw from the channel at least until they figure it out...
As to the question of activation - I think the simplest would have been a cable, unwinded from the french shore as the ships crosses the channel, but some failsafe radio activation is also not out of the question (Modified enigma machine comes to mind)
Of course the British could have tried the same as an anti invasion fleet measure - creating a huge wave to sink the barges, etc...
__________________
If you believe - you receive, if you doubt - you go without.
|

November 25th, 2008, 07:48 AM
|
 |
Member
|
|
Join Date: May 2008
Location: St. Helens, OR
Posts: 760
Salute!: 6
Saluted 24 Times in 20 Posts
|
|
Re: How Sealion could have been made workable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner
I would have only had the Luftwaffe perform one mission if necessary: Keep the Royal Navy out of the Channel. Given the results of a fraction of the available aircraft in 1940 by Richtofen's VIII FleigerKorps off Crete the British couldn't afford the losses for long if they had to operate in daylight against a determined Luftwaffe.
|
You would not have any choice. The Luftwaffe would HAVE to successfully perform those FIVE critical missions if Operation Sealion were to have any chance at all of succeeding. While VIII Fleigerkorps' planes were only a fraction of the number which would have been available to Operation Sealion, it's also true that the RN only had a fraction of the ships off Crete that would have been available to defend the British Isles.
What happened at Crete? The Germans attacked with airborne troops and narrowly defeated the British ground forces on the island. The RN Eastern Med squadron, based at Alexandria, and numbering about 45 warships (4 battleships, 1 carrier, 10 cruisers, and about 30 destroyers), prevented the Germans from reinforcing their troops on Crete by sea. After the British ground forces were defeated, the RN evacuated about 15,000 British troops. It was during the evacuation phase that most of the RN losses occurred. Over a period of ten days, nine warships (3 cruisers, 6 destroyers) were sunk (20 % of the Med squadron) and 18 (40 %) were damaged. This was the price the RN paid to evacuate the equivalent of a single division, mostly without any of it's equipment.
If the Luftwaffe managed to inflict similar losses on the British Home Fleet and the anti-invasion light forces (totaling altogether about 257 warships), the RN could expect to lose about 57 ships sunk and 102 damaged. This would be well within an acceptable price to pay to prevent an invasion of the British Isles and inflict a decisive defeat on Germany, especially since there would be no remaining operational German surface ships. But even those ratios are highly suspect because the RN would be operating with some air cover from RAF aircraft, and also would be operating literally in their own back yard where it would be possible to save even severely damaged warships.
Furthermore, the Luftwaffe would have only about 24 hours (probably ten of them hours of darkness) in which to launch attacks on RN ships operating in the Channel. After 24 hours, the German invasion fleet would mostly be sitting on the bottom or washing up as wreckage on the beaches. Since the Luftwaffe would also simultaneously have to land large numbers of paratroops in England, engage and destroy any remaining RAF fighters, provide ground support for any German forces in England, and mount resupply and reinforcement missions, it's ability to destroy or even harass RN warships in the Channel is going to be seriously restricted.
I do not see any realistic possibility of the Luftwaffe, determined or otherwise, being able to stop the RN from turning the German invasion fleet into so much matchwood.
Last edited by Devilsadvocate; November 25th, 2008 at 07:50 AM.
Reason: edited for spelling and grammar
|

November 25th, 2008, 09:09 AM
|
 |
Ace
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Portland,Oregon
Posts: 6,930
Salute!: 16
Saluted 64 Times in 57 Posts
|
|
Re: How Sealion could have been made workable?
__________________
For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.
Last edited by JCFalkenbergIII; November 25th, 2008 at 09:14 AM.
|
|
The Following 2 Users Salute JCFalkenbergIII For This Useful Post:
|
|

November 25th, 2008, 10:55 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 337
Salute!: 0
Saluted 2 Times in 2 Posts
|
|
Re: How Sealion could have been made workable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilsadvocate
...
What happened at Crete? .... After the British ground forces were defeated, the RN evacuated about 15,000 British troops. It was during the evacuation phase that most of the RN losses occurred. Over a period of ten days, nine warships (3 cruisers, 6 destroyers) were sunk (20 % of the Med squadron) and 18 (40 %) were damaged. ....
|
It is worth noteing that many/most of the losses didn't occur until the British ships were severely depleted or out of AA ammo.
As for artillery in the British isles they recieved hundreds of pieces along with ammo in June. Not to mention that there were untouched formations in Britain.
|

November 25th, 2008, 12:37 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 640
Salute!: 0
Saluted 5 Times in 4 Posts
|
|
Re: How Sealion could have been made workable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lwd
As for artillery in the British isles they recieved hundreds of pieces along with ammo in June. Not to mention that there were untouched formations in Britain.
|
A subject that is commonly ignored by Sea Lion afficiandos. The actual strength of the British army in June thru October is seldom refered to.
__________________
I forgot my password, can I use yours?
|

November 25th, 2008, 01:12 PM
|
 |
WW2F Veteran
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Way down under
Posts: 1,678
Salute!: 23
Saluted 8 Times in 8 Posts
|
|
Re: How Sealion could have been made workable?
Don't forget to bring up the large rail guns in England, what were their names, Winnie and Pooh?
__________________
They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget
|

November 27th, 2008, 11:33 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 244
Salute!: 0
Saluted 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
|
Re: How Sealion could have been made workable?
well then you could stray a bit and decide which to do: invade britain or russia --successfully? i'll still go with russia.
|

November 27th, 2008, 09:17 PM
|
 |
Member
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 117
Salute!: 0
Saluted 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
|
Re: How Sealion could have been made workable?
From my 'Magic Wand' cupboard!
NIL soldiers saved at Dunkirk.
1000 'Higgins' Boats'.
1000 Torpedo bombers.
100 Minelayers,
100 Minesweepers.
'Bismark' and 'Tirpitz' fully operational.
10x Pocket battleships.
50x Destroyers.
1000+ Bf 109s.
20 Divisions of fresh troops.
EASY!!!
John.
PS,
Perfect weather!
__________________
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". - Voltaire.
|

November 28th, 2008, 12:04 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 244
Salute!: 0
Saluted 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
|
Re: How Sealion could have been made workable?
^ that's just the british or japanese navy in peacetime!
|

Today, 12:44 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: GB
Posts: 96
Salute!: 0
Saluted 1 Time in 1 Post
|
|
Re: How Sealion could have been made workable?
The British still had 14 divisions seperate from the the BEF with these were very light on Armour, some what better on artillery and motorized with trucks taken from the large civilian motor pool. This represented between 130,000 and 14,000 men they would have provided a fairly effect counter attack force. There were still two fully equipped Canadian divisions that were later dispatched to France to try and keep them in the war.
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT. The time now is 04:56 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0 Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5
Copyright © 2000 - 2007, the World War II Network, all rights reserved.Ad Management by RedTyger
|
 |