Winter set in after Vyasma, and Rundstedt advocated a withdrawal to Poland.
What if Hitler listened to him, and pulled back his force. He could lunch another Operation in 1942, and push the weakened front all the way to Moscow without too much trouble.

Are you assuming the Russians would stay still?

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

I assume the Russians would mobilize and mass most of their manpower to the new frontline in Poland, and make it much easier for the Germans to envelop them. That way the Germans would avoid facing them thousands of miles deep in hostile territory. If the Russians still have reasonable amount of manpower after 1942 operation, pull back to Poland and start enveloping again in 1943. Keep this up until Stalin agrees to become a priest or until Stalin become the only person strong enough to hold a rifle in Russia.

Ah, but therein lies the rub. The only good year for enveloping Russians was 1941, after those lessons learnt the hard way the Russians started to pull back to a new line when flanks became compromised so the old Summer'41 manouvers were no longer working in 1942. Historically the Germans were gaining a lot of (empty) territory in the South, but where were the prisioner bags of 1941? that was how Hitler wrongly surmised the Russians were exhausted. They weren't, what they were was not being caught.

On the other hand the respite given by an inactive winter would provide the Russians with a golden opportunity to rest, reorganise and reequip, all this at a line much forward, with lots more of European territory intact, that is, with much better provisions of manpower, foodstuffs, and industrial production. Together with the possibility of refitting the former Stalin line fortifications and transformation of all cities on the Moscow road into Festungen or however it's said in Russian, I see a number of Stalingrads on the way to Moscow.

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

So Za, what would you do after Vyasma?

Ehhh, working for which side?

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

For the Germany of course, since destiny has abandoned her.

Is Za really going to put himself in the position of the Germans? Gather round everyone!

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Well, putting on my wargamer's hat I would forge on straight to Moscow and send only a minimum force North towards Leningrad and leave AG South to fend for itself; a Kiev-Crimea axis would be more than good enough.

Failing to take Moscow, which is entirely likely I'd rally on an advanced line as soon as the mud came in and regroup for the new offensive next spring while preparing to reequip in view of the superior tanks met, getting rid of the 37mm and short-50 PzIIIs and short-75 PzIVs, 37mm PaK, etc. Also most important get loads of witer clothing ready in time!

These are only the most obvious steps, there would be a lot more, first of all pulling my hair out for having got into this Barbarossa trap in the first place

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

Za this is nonsense.

What about flying panzers from germany directly to the frontline? That ought to keep the momentum up. The same tactic would prove useful when negotiating the Urals too.

And by munstering all subs, surely you could use them to ferry an SS panzercorps around cape north and use the troops on a sneak attack on Murmansk.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

All those things you said actually happened. The process of fully reequipping would take more than a year; enough winter cloth could never be delivered in a timely manner due to German transport capacity.
I hope you are joking, because I expected more.

I'm not joking, I wrote the above in a hurry, I'd need time to organise my thoughts and put up a proper reply.

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

As I saw no smiley here...... I must ask, is this sarcasm or are you serious?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Not entirely, as Leningrad dealt with a little more then just a minimal force and the Push to Moscow was delayed.....

But as you yourself say " All those things actually happened " should be enough to prove that Russia would not have fallen

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

This is another problematic "What If ...?" as it assumes that Hitler would agree not only to a tactical retreat, but to strategic one. Hitler did not do that ... ever. Maybe Germany would have retreated with a different ruler other than Hitler.

However, even if this were the case I do not see much point in it as a retreat after Vyasma would have been simply disastrous. Winter had already set in by the time of Vyazma (January-March, 1942) and trying to extricate German equipment would have been exceedingly difficult given the weather and the fact that the Russians were pushing hard against the German line. Hitler's order to hold fast was the right one in this case, as most military historians have agreed. Unfortunately, Hitler took from this that holding fast was always the right decision and we know how that turned out. However, in early 1942 Hitler was right. Za Rodinu has already pointed out how counter-productive such a retreat would have been. Retreating from the area in front of Moscow would have also been disastrous politically, and never forget that Hitler had to think politically at the same time as militarily.

Why would Hitler listen to his Generals more so his Prussian Generals which he despised?

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Regards, Richard

There back this Xmas 2008

Exactly how would the Germans pull this off? The advance to that point had literally decimated the motor transport of most divisions. The rail system lacked the capacity for such a movement. A withdrawal that was even marginally contested would have almost certainly ended in a disasterous disorganization and destruction of many units conducting it.
A much better option would have been to simply stop in place, dig in, and refit for another push in 1942 when the weather improved.

By the way, I've been looking at the first Soviet counter offensives in front of Moscow in December 41 and January 42. The stand and fight order probably caused more German losses for no great gain than more considered withdrawals when necessary would have. In a number of cases division commanders ignored the standfast order and saved their commands (later to be awarded medals for their actions by Hitler I might add) rather than letting them be cut off and then cut to pieces in isolation. Had the Soviets had more capacity in launching this offensive they likely would have driven AGC back 200 plus miles across the board permanently.

Or do you mean T.A. (as well) that if Stalin had not requested attacking on the whole front? I recall Zhukov was not happy because he would have wanted to concentrate his attacks on certain points....

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Ah, Stalin, ever the optimist!

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

Sorry Slava I don't use smileys a lot.

I am just fed up with fanciful what if's to make the Evil Evil empire take over Europe rather than the just Evil Empire who did. (I could put a smiley here if you like)

I find it tragic that the sacrefice of so many young men in such an unnessesary war are beeing used in a battle of prestige in 2007. If you discuss the Great War most people get obsessed about tactics that could have spared humans lives, on discussing WW2 the attention is on prestige around Generals and Armies.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

I see what you mean

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler