Stalin decides in an early phaseout of T-26s, BTs and the light tank junk, so in Barbarossa instead of 20,000 shitty tanks the Wehrmacht is faced with 10,000 T-34s.......


As much as I enjoy this " what if " I can only take credit for the copy and paste as someone else has already brought this up.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Germany would have never got close to Moscow.

Instead of hundreds of miles... a few feet Kidding.

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Time is only enemy you'll never get rid of.

Without an accompanying change in strategy, that is hard to really say with any certainty. After the realization that their "stand and fight where you are" theory resulted in huge losses, the Soviets adopted a more flexible approach to warfare.

Perhaps German encirclements of the Soviets would have been less involved or their abilities to breakout greater. It guess it would depend on the Soviet supply situations following an encirclement. An immobile tank due to fuel starvation is very vulnerable, even if it is a T-34.

I read somewhere of the the German's shock at encountering their first T-34. They were finally able to stop its rampage after landing a 105mm HE shell into it's rear.

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Best Regards,
JW

Nothing would have changed, the Red Army would still have been freezed in its track in front of Berlin during winter 41.

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With all the T-34´s Stalin would have won the Winter War and Hitler would not have attacked the USSR...

Oops. Did I spoil it?

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Nothing like a big boost in confidence[ala Stalingrad]in stopping the "happy feet." Germany had very little to stop a T-34 early on. The Soviets,knowing they had a worthy tank, would'nt have been that scared of the approaching Germans.IMO.

Although I believe he was actually trying to retool as fast as he could anyways, I agree, the Germans would've been stopped alot shorter.

Though keep in mind that at this point the Germans weren't winning so much because of tank quality, but of organization and tactics. And of course some air superiority.

I wonder, given what Guderian yelled at Hitler over his eye-witness of the T34 and KvI(or was it Model?)...if I recall correctly, the report of the T34/KvI alone was cause for some German generals to suggest to Hitler that the Germans be more cautious and maybe hold and consolidate and try to force Stalin to accept terms.

One of my favourite tanks.
Nice, round, smooth lines, low and sleek...hmmm, going to go kiss a woman now .

now only if there was a "what if" that if Russian's had Tigers

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Time is only enemy you'll never get rid of.

Would they call it a Bear?

sorry host, off topic.

Initially German success, but a complete rout by Soviets on the Germans, most probably a German defeat by 1943.

Regards.

Nearly all the Soviet tanks lost in the opening months were lost due to badly trained crews, inept tactical leaders, chaotic operational leadership, and a blundering strategy from the top. A logistics sytem that frequently collapsed helped as well. The same regiments that lost their tanks due to wrong orders, failed fuel deliverys, untrained gunners, ect... will lose them whatever model they are.

The Britsh & French had tanks with better armor and better guns than the Germans in 1940, but were still defeated. Why should the worse prepared Soviet Army do better just because it has a different tank?

You put up a good argument. All I can reply is that most of the outmoded fleet (BT, T-37, T-40, T-26, etc etc) besides being inherently useless (or as useful as the PzII and early PzIII) already had a lot of mileage in them so were all potential junkheaps.

The T-34s, being new construction, would at least have lasted a bit more, and even if not perfect (which they weren't) would be a bit tougher than the other speed bumps.

We have all the anedoctal evidence of the 37mm PaK (and KwK) becoming useless overnight when faced with T-34, so a fleet of these instead of the previous mishmash must have had some effect.

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ALIVE!!! ITS ALLLLIVEEEEE!!!!

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

What's alive, Kulak?

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

Initially the Soviets would still be routed. It is one thing to have 10,000 T-34/76 it is another to have the effective leadership on the battlefield to use them, and at this stage the Germans had complete superiorority over the Soviets but one factor that the Panther might have come into effect earlier at least a year earlier. But whatever the result Germany was doomed either way.

Oh no, even in this thread I think that he was a goner

In the early stages of the Ost Front, where-ever the T-34 showed its face, the German advace slowed. Even with the superior German leadership in the beginning, how much would the German leadership might be able to accomplish with its 3,500 absolete Panzers against 10k T-34's?

Where about the Panther?

I love a Soviet "What if "

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Still not impressed. Production of all thsoe t34 assumes it was designed a couple years earlier, or that accelerated production occurs. (most likely both). In either case the mechanical problems of the earlier tanks apply to the t34s & in the case of accelerated production are worse.

The training problem must be accounted for. One of the reasons for the sucess of the t34 equippe regiments in 1941 is that they usually included the better trained leaders and crews. Some were made up of the training staff of the school unit. So these were not your average July 1941 tank regiment.

My small study of the Wehrmachts supply problems of June thru Dec 1941 suggests slowing down a couple weeks might be better anyway.

Hitler did say in 1942 if he knew the Russians had that many tanks he would had thought twice about invading, so it may have been the case in this What If Hitler may have put the whole thing on hold.

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Regards, Richard


"Welcome to my new Empire,Doctor."

He did indeed, but then again this only was the case after the Wehrmacht came head to head with the tanks. Could Hitler have known or believed the number of Soviet tanks before actually coming face to face with them?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

With all the T-34´s Stalin would have won the Winter War and Hitler would not have attacked the USSR...

Oops. Did I spoil it?
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hey, just to comment on your msg, i dont really think the Russians lost the witer war due to the poor quality of their tanks they used, as the Finns had no heavy tanks of there own or large scale armoured fighting or any air power of note.

it was there hit and run tactics, ski troops and knowledge of the terrain coupled with very poor Soviet tactics and operational thinking which ruined their campaign.

One aspect that has not being covered and that is air superiorority, if we assume that the Soviet Red Air Force is effectively wiped out in the first 24 hours of Operation Barbarossa within the west then we have so many T-34/76's running around without air protection, making them vulnerable to air attack and also deployment how are these tanks are to be deployed spread along the front, meaning we have one tank per 200 metres or massed.

More to come.

Good news for the Germans indeed, as they would have had tanks(captured) that could actually move and fire at the gate of Moscow.
Unlike the Germans, the Russians didn't use their tanks in large formations, which made them easy meat for the Anti-Tank guns.