German favour Mark IV as main battle tank? - Page 4

Za Rodinu · #76 (**permalink**) April 9th, 2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machine shop tom

This is from a post early in this resurrected thread.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/pz4_pz5.jpg

Tom, the later Pz IVs were already way overweight with the bigger gun, 80mm armour, schurzen. Suspensions and transmissions were overloaded, and as a consequence mobility and reliability suffered. Do you want to overload the poor donkey even more?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl W Schwamberger

Hmmm... side & top armor under 25mm thick, sounds like one of the "soft" vehicals the aircraft trashed so often. I do know such vehicals are about as vulnerable to artillery HE/fragmentation fires as any light armor & a hit within a meter or so is trouble and a direct hit anywhere is doom, unlike medium tanks which can survive one or maybe two such hits.

Please explain why 25mm top armour is unsufficient, comparable to soft-skin vehicles, and why "medium tanks" are so different. Do you have any firing range figures for us?

ValkyrieKatrina · #77 (**permalink**) May 5th, 2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaeger

What if the Germans adopted the up gunned mark IV as a 'main battle tank' in 1942?
Dropping the production of mark III and scrapping the plans for the Panther?

The germans had trouble throughout the war to get the full compliment of tanks in their Panzer divisions. Would an all out production of Mark IV have remedied this?

Reading from my papers the production of mark IV peaked in '44 with around 300 per month.
But from '43 to the end of the war there was produced some 5987 Panthers
During 42-43 well over 1000 mark III were produced.

What if the resources 'wasted' on mark III and V were allocated to an all out production of mark IV, would the germans have fared better?

Less fuel consuming than Panther and Tiger it would help on the operational side to.. Or would it?

Okay, I will respond to this without reading any other replies here so if I repeat whats already been said then please bear with me

. I have spent endless hours at work daydreaming about this very topic when I was supposed to be doing actual work and I have to say that if you erase both the tiger and the panther as well as Hitler's ridiculous elefant tanks and the like and fielded a mark IV with the high velocity 75mm gun then the germans would have been able to put at least 5 times as many tanks into battle than they did. would this have turned the tide of the war? I doubt it, in the end, they simply had bitten off far more than they could chew.

PzJgr · #78 (**permalink**) May 5th, 2008, 07:13 PM

In the West, the Germans could get away with just having Mk IVs but in the East, the Tiger wrecked havoc and in my opinion was the tank of choice since the Germans were already on the defensive. The Tiger could bring down the numbers before having to move and the more mobile Panthers can deal with the rest along with anti-tank guns and of course the almighty Stugs.

tikilal · #79 (**permalink**) May 5th, 2008, 10:12 PM

PzJr is on the money here. It would have been even better had the Tiger been perfected. Had it been more reliable/durable it would have had a bigger impact than 5,000 - 10,000 more Mark IVs IMO.

ValkyrieKatrina · #80 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PzJgr

In the West, the Germans could get away with just having Mk IVs but in the East, the Tiger wrecked havoc and in my opinion was the tank of choice since the Germans were already on the defensive. The Tiger could bring down the numbers before having to move and the more mobile Panthers can deal with the rest along with anti-tank guns and of course the almighty Stugs.

agreed with all but what if the germans had fielded the up-gunned mark IV in the early stages of the war? I know they used every tiger to the utmost advantage but still...one wonders what could have been...*sigh*

Za Rodinu · #81 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValkyrieKatrina

...one wonders what could have been...*sigh*

I do appreciate very much writing in this forums in English, not in Krautish

In any case the best anti-tank weapon the Allies had was a B-25 bomber group over a marshalling yard, and there wasn't much the Germans could do about that, not even the Pz IV could be made to shoot upwards, therefore no solution.

And taking on your signature, here is some more Henry V, albeit in a kindler, gentler fashion:

Quote:

But, in faith,
Kate, the elder I wax, the better I shall appear:
my comfort is, that old age, that ill layer up of
beauty, can do no more, spoil upon my face: thou
hast me, if thou hast me, at the worst; and thou
shalt wear me, if thou wear me, better and better:
and therefore tell me, most fair Katharine, will you
have me?

Slipdigit · #82 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 05:04 PM

Ah, the favorite of the Shakespearean plays for me. The first my wife and I saw together.

Quote:

But, in faith,
Kate, the elder I wax, the better I shall appear:
my comfort is, that old age, that ill layer up of
beauty, can do no more, spoil upon my face: thou
hast me, if thou hast me, at the worst; and thou
shalt wear me, if thou wear me, better and better:
and therefore tell me, most fair Katharine, will you
have me?

PzJgr · #83 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValkyrieKatrina

agreed with all but what if the germans had fielded the up-gunned mark IV in the early stages of the war? I know they used every tiger to the utmost advantage but still...one wonders what could have been...*sigh*

Can't remember where I read it but it seems that the Mk IV was unable to accommodate any larger caliber due to the limited space for the gun and ammo.

Skipper · #84 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 05:15 PM

"This was a merry message"

"We hope to make the sender blush at it"

Za Rodinu · #85 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PzJgr

Can't remember where I read it but it seems that the Mk IV was unable to accommodate any larger caliber due to the limited space for the gun and ammo.

Alas, poor Yorick, that turret is to my eyes
Much too small already for the KwK 40 L/48.
Too low in height it is, thou would unable be
To fit a larger gun in, not to mention
Longer length and recoil extension.

Slipdigit · #86 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 06:44 PM

But hard, what gun through yonder glacis breaks?
It is the large gun breach, and the ring is small.
Arise, Ferdinand, and challenge Henschel,
Who is already designed a machine of death
But thou, GroFaz’s desire, art far more favored than he.

Za Rodinu · #87 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 06:49 PM

PzJgr · #88 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 07:04 PM

bunch of literic comedians

Slipdigit · #89 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 07:11 PM

Miguel, you've got me on a roll.

O STuGIII, STuGIII, wherefore art thou STuGIII?
Deny thy turret and refuse thy name a tank;
Or if thou wilt not, be but sworn my grizzled beast
And I'll no longer be a Hertzer.

PzJgr · #90 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 07:31 PM

Ye StugIIIth is in battle hunting ye t-34th to killeth.
Keepeth thou panzer, for it is not needeth

Who started THIS! Let's refer to the good book

"The Stug III is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear?
The Stug III is the stronghold of my life,
of whom shall I be afraid of?
Certainly not of thy T-34"

Von Poop · #91 (**permalink**) May 6th, 2008, 08:20 PM

"See, noble Charles, the beacon of our friend;
The burning torch in yonder turret stands."

"To slay the tiger that doth live by slaughter"

"To-morrow, an it please your majesty
To hunt the panther and the hart with me,"

"And by the bright track of his fiery car,
Gives signal, of a goodly day to-morrow."

Cheers,
Adam.

Skipper · #92 (**permalink**) May 8th, 2008, 07:26 AM

This could have be said just before D-Day:

"When we have matched these rackets to these balls, we will in France, by God's grace, play a set. I will rise there with so full a glory that Iwill dazzle all the eyes of France.
This lies all within the will of God to whom I appeal and in whose name I am coming on, to venge me as I may and to put forth my rightfull hand in a well hallowed course".

ValkyrieKatrina · #93 (**permalink**) May 12th, 2008, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

I do appreciate very much writing in this forums in English, not in Krautish

In any case the best anti-tank weapon the Allies had was a B-25 bomber group over a marshalling yard, and there wasn't much the Germans could do about that, not even the Pz IV could be made to shoot upwards, therefore no solution.

And taking on your signature, here is some more Henry V, albeit in a kindler, gentler fashion:

this sounds like a marriage proposal!

I do love shakespeare I must admit. krautish? funny word that. gentler HenryVth? true I chose mine to fit the tone of this site which is war related. plus I just watched 'the postman' again and I love how kevin costner says that line in the film towards the end....

ValkyrieKatrina · #94 (**permalink**) May 12th, 2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slipdigit

But hard, what gun through yonder glacis breaks?
It is the large gun breach, and the ring is small.
Arise, Ferdinand, and challenge Henschel,
Who is already designed a machine of death
But thou, GroFaz’s desire, art far more favored than he.

you guys are too funny! what have I started with this shakespeare quote of mine?!