I apologize if this is a repeat thread...

What if Hitler's scientists had developed the atomic bomb before the Manhattan Project completed their work? With the Allies closing in on all sides, Hitler is given access to 5 atomic bombs. No more will be available for 3 months because of a lack of uranium.

First question...would he use them (that seems to be an easy answer)?

Second question...how would they be employed and against who?

Third question...what affect would they have on the Allie's drive to Berlin?

I know what I have in mind, but will wait until there are a few replies before posting my thoughts.

Here's the answer:

Where would the german A-bomb be dropped?

2003...guess I didn't go back far enough...

Do feel free to add your own suggestions to those in the earlier thread.

Actually that thread doesn't give me insight from members about the specific use of 5 bombs. I'd like some input on whether you would use them as air-delivered weapons (with the inherent risk of losing the bomb if the plane is shot down) or ground-deployed against front-line forces? Would you concentrate on major population sites or against front line troops? Would you try to utilize them against just one front or against both Soviets and US/British forces? What would be your specific targets for each bomb and when would you utilize them? All at once? Spread out?
Finally, what affect do you think it would have on the outcome of the war?

As far fetched as this one is, I must ask just out of curiosity where does the number 5 come from? Why not 10?

__________________
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Because it is a "what if" and that's the number I came up with...pulled it out of my butt. Want the scenario to be more than 1 because that would be inconsequential to the outcome of the war. 5 creates a quandary of how you would utilize this precious resource...and knowing that you would not have anymore until July 1.

Well in that case.........

__________________
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

It still boils down to the same thing as the previous thread: How do you deliver them to your target? For Germany, there are only two viable methods. One, use a Mistel. Two bury the bomb and detonate it under your enemy as they move over it.
Option one is somewhat risky as the chances of being shot down in the West are high. Using a Mistel against the Soviets is far less risky as they have no really viable nightfighter force.
Option two is very risky. If the bomb fails to detonate your enemy now has a nuclear weapon. If it is captured prior to detonation same thing. If the enemy does not mass where the weapon is placed you waste the weapon on alot of open ground for little return. On the whole, this option is very uncertain in result and very risky in operation.

Of course, if these are available starting on 1 April 1945 (eg., about a month before the war ends) basically the German best move is to get them West out of reach of the Soviets by road or rail. Forget using them. Just make sure they don't fall into Soviet hands.
Germany at that point is so messed up that there would have been no way to transport the bombs to a useful location and use them. In the West the Allies at that point are motoring around like they are on vacation. A crew trying to emplace and ground detonate a bomb is just as likely to be overrun as complete the task. In the East the Soviets are so numerous that blowing up a few of their units would make literally no difference. There is no way to air deliver them by that point in the war short of a one way suicide mission; and even that is nearly impossible due to the fuel situation.

I would not put it pass Hitler to use them on Germany in five city's Berlin would be one, and why? Didn't Hitler give a speech back in November 1943 if the German people failed him he would have no mercy for them.

__________________
Regards, Richard


"Open channel D"

I suspect regardless of Hitler's orders he would have had a hard time finding people in April 1945 to carry them out. I would think virtually any sane person would have said "yes sir" and then tactly ignored such an order.

Yes, remember the "Is Paris Burning?" question. Nevertheless there were guys fnatic enough to flood the Berlin Metro, full of refugees and wounded.

__________________
Bah!

A good question, lets assume he did have these atomics then.

These are the big five

Moscow, and the delivery system would be one of the Me-264 Porototypes and that aircraft would be guarded by every available fight/Fighter/Bomber he had left in the east.

London, again by another Me-264 prototype and would be shielded by every aircraft in the west.

Washington DC, the third prototype Me-264 would be use on a one way mission

New York, this could be acieved by a suicide crew manning a U-Boat.

Paris, By a modified Bv-222.

With the total annialation of Moscow and the complete loss of the entire political and military leadership the Soviet war machine falls apart, Hitler threatens to level Leningrad if the Soviets don't unconditionally surrender, they have no choice.

London being the centre of the Government and the Royal Family and the heart of Britain and with it's destruction Hitler threatens to wipe out the Industrial Heartland of the Midlands, i believe that with the threat of another atomic Britain would be forced into uncondidtional surrender.

Paris, Hitler would threaten to use one on Paris and knowing the French they would again surrender, they would have no choice.

Washington DC, The political heart of the US.

New York, the financial capital of the world, enough said and the heartland of the international Jewery.

If this was able to buy Hitler enough time say three months as original post suggests then if the US was still in the hunt i have two more targets

Chicago, Illinois USA, the industrial heart of America.

Richmond, Virginia USA the largest naval base in the Atlantic.

I'd lean more toward Pittsburgh as being the industrial heart of America at that time. Chicago was more a mercantile town and a railhead.

Richmond Va is about 100 or so miles inland, on the Piedmont. As best I remember, there are no harbor facilities to support a blue water navy there, as ocean-going vessels can't get that far inland because the James River is too shallow and narrow for large ships. Perhaps you were thinking of Newport News, VA?

__________________
Best Regards,
JW

On Chicago, yes Pittsburgh would be a better target, also Detroit with its importance in vehicle and aircraft industries.

Richmond was a mistake, i meant Norfolk Virginia.

Only problem is that the single Me 264 prototype was destroyed on the ground in September 1944 so none exist in April 1945.

See above. The aircraft does not exist. Nor does the Ju 390 (captured at Mont de Marsan in mid 1944).

The only problem here is the crew has about two weeks to make the trip before the war ends. It isn't enough time to do it.

Same problem. The only existing ones are stranded in Norway with no fuel (BV 222 V2 and C-012) or already in Allied hands in April 1945 (BV 222 C-011 and C-013).

T.A Gardner thanks for the info, well lets see what i can come up with huh.

I can not be certain but how many He-177's did the German have in service that could have been modified to deliver such weapons, on the assumptions that the he-177's were modified knowing that five atomics existed, but those modifying the aircraft were told that conventional weaponry was to used, i know that the He-177 had the range to fly to Englend and back from Germany, and again had the range to Moscow.

This could by Germany time if say "hypothetically" the Luftwaffe in the last validictory mission successfully carries out atomic attacks on say London and Moscow. And lets say "hypothetically" this causes the U.S.S.R and Britain to at the very least sue for an armistice with Germany or the best case senario a complete uncondidtional surrender, with Britain and the U.S.S.R out of the war, and France threatened with an Atomic attack if she does not withdraw as well, how long can American forces in Europe last without allied help.

Thanks to everyone for your opinions. If I put myself in Hitler's place on April 1, 1945, the overall situation is extremely bleak...

On the eastern front, the last German resistance along the Oder River is eliminated on this day and the Soviet forces are preparing to cross in force.
Brataslava (the capital of Slovakia) and Vienna (capital of Austria) are being attacked. In East Prussia, Konigsberg is under attack.

On the western front, American troops (1st and 9th Armies) link up at Lippstadt and seal the Ruhr pocket trapping 325,000 German soldiers.

My decisions...use the bombs on major enemy cities (Moscow, London) or on front-line troop concentrations. After deliberation, I would implement the following plan:

Day 1 - Send high-level bomber with half of all available fighter escorts toward Moscow. Plan would to be destruction of that city and the Soviet government and military nucleus.
Later that day, send another bomber with remaining escorts to destroy London.

Send communications to Zhukov and Eisenhower that their leadership has been destroyed and other bombs will be delivered unless their is an immediate withdrawal of all Allied armies to behind the Rhine (in the West) and behind the Vistula (in the East) with a ceasefire in place along all fronts including Slovakia, Hungary and Austria.

Day 2 - If Allies agree to withdrawal and ceasefire, no other bombs would be utilized.
If Allies do not agree to terms, 2 more bombs would be used in a tactical fashion to destroy large army concentrations on each front.
Target 1 - Most dense Soviet troop concentrations just east of the Oder.
Target 2 - Same thing near Lippstadt against American forces sealing the Ruhr Pocket.
Again, issue the same demands as before.

Day 7 - Depending on situation, I still have one bomb in hand. More than likely, Allies would sue for peace and Germany would negotiate new territory including the old Reich territory plus Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Balkans, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Holland, Italy and Belgium. Let France go independent but reinstall Vichy regime.
If Allies refused to ceasefire and kept advancing, the last bomb would be planted in the center of Berlin and detonated when Allied troops occupied the capital resulting in a grand Wagnerian apocalypse.

The only difference i would do is this

Day 3 - While allies are in a state of confusion after the elimination of London i would take advantage and deliver the third bomb on Birmingham which lies if i am correct the industrial heart of Britain and threaten Britain with a third atomic if she did not agree on an immediate unconditional surrender and immediate withdrawal of all allied forces on continental Europe including Italy and Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica

Day 5 -If Britain has not responded to the immidiate unconditional surrender and the Soviets still maintained its offensive then i would drop the fourth on Warsaw wiping out Zhukov's headquarters.

And if worse comes to worse and they still persist then Berlin will be it after its capture.

The He 177 is incapable of lifting a 1944 - 45 vintage bomb and hauling it the required distance. Also, it does not possess a bomb bay large enough to fit such a weapon (basing dimensions on US ones). Modifying one in April 1945?!! Not likely. At this point just getting something flying was a daunting task. Kurt Tank trying to get a Ta 152 up had to send a guy on a bicycle to the manufacturer's factory for a part. It took the guy a week for the round trip. This was to replace a single part. Making major changes to a bomber?! With what? How? Ain't happening.

Also, as the previous threads on this point out, sending a bomber under escort deep into Western Allied territory is suicide. Either the British AMES or US MEW system will pick it and its escorts up and vector in either day or night fighters and shoot it along with its escorts down.
One should also note at that point finding the 6 to 8 tons of fuel for the bomber and additional fuel for the escort is likely impossible. Basically, outside the Mistel option, if one could be found, the aerial method in April 1945 is out of the question, certainly any sort of large organized strike is literally impossible.

For ground delivery how are you proposing to do this with something weighing on the order of 5 tons?