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What If? Alternate History: Speculate about WWII battles that never were. Could the Axis have won? What if Hitler had the bomb?

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old March 6th, 2008, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: Turkey joins the Axis in 1940 After France Falls

The Suez Canal was (is) a through-way from somewher to somewhere. Considering the Med was rather much a no-go area for British shipping, it looks very much like the Suez C. had lost it's pre-war importance, so no big reason to make such a song and dance about it.
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Old March 6th, 2008, 11:08 PM
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Default Re: Turkey joins the Axis in 1940 After France Falls

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Originally Posted by MontE View Post
Just like Germany, Turkey was a weakend, humiliated and castrated state by the treaty of Versailles. The empire stripped and lingering wounds of the First world war could easily have lead to the same sort of Nationalism and resentment against Britain and France that would lead them to throw their weight against the (at the time seemingly) crumbling facade of British/Frence power in the region.
Ha! In that case Turkey would have been better off siding with the Soviets!
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old March 6th, 2008, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: Turkey joins the Axis in 1940 After France Falls

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Originally Posted by Sloniksp View Post
Ha! In that case Turkey would have been better off siding with the Soviets!
Agreed. A red turkey is better than a nazi turkey.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old March 7th, 2008, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Turkey joins the Axis in 1940 After France Falls

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Originally Posted by Sloniksp View Post
Ha! In that case Turkey would have been better off siding with the Soviets!
Unfortuantly a Soviet - Russia alliance was and is never possible for the following reasons:

The violent and constant warfare between the two countrys from Ivan to the Civil war or 1917-1924 ( you can count on your hands the number of days these to Empires were NOT at war for one reason or another)

The Soviet Union was a communist atheist state and the Ottoman Empire / Turkey a deeply religious but emerging secular state.

I think the chances of a Soviet Turkey over an Axis Turkey are VERy slim indeed.

As for the Suez Canal... Egypt was the prize, the link between Brithsh Africa and the middle east. A supply and shipping center for not only the Med but the Indian ocean and the middle east also. Its loss would be a huge blow to the stuggleing British and allowed German Italian (and Turkish) access to the Indian ocean and exposed shipping lanes of the British Empire. I agree the supply into the Med via ship was negligable, however all supplies for the armies of Egypt/ the holy land and the Med came into the Red Sea and Suez shipping center.
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Old March 7th, 2008, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Turkey joins the Axis in 1940 After France Falls

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Unfortuantly a Soviet - Russia alliance was and is never possible for the following reasons:

The violent and constant warfare between the two countrys from Ivan to the Civil war or 1917-1924 ( you can count on your hands the number of days these to Empires were NOT at war for one reason or another)
This brings me to my original point. Turkey and Russia have had numerous ingagements and Russia always came out on top.

Why would Turkey consider going to war with Russia again, at a time when she was in no shape to do so and with an ally that previously cost Turkey an empire?
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old March 7th, 2008, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Turkey joins the Axis in 1940 After France Falls

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Originally Posted by Sloniksp View Post
This brings me to my original point. Turkey and Russia have had numerous ingagements and Russia always came out on top.

Why would Turkey consider going to war with Russia again, at a time when she was in no shape to do so and with an ally that previously cost Turkey an empire?
I completely agree! Turkey would not want any further war with Russia BUT, if we are talking about 1940 after the fall of France, Turkey (like many Axis allies) could or did not forsee the German attack on Russia the next year. it seemed to the world at that time (after the winter war and the division of Poland) that germany and Russia had come to an understanding and England/France were alone.

Turkey could greedily eye its former subjects with little fear of a clash with the Soviets and only limited resistance from the beaten and retreating British.

Try to see it from the perspective of 1940 BEFORE the invasion of the USSR. Turkey could have joined to settle scores and take care of REGIONAL operations not knowing that they might be dragged into the future storm on the Ost front?
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old March 9th, 2008, 10:25 PM
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Default Re: Turkey joins the Axis in 1940 After France Falls

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Originally Posted by MontE View Post
Try to see it from the perspective of 1940 BEFORE the invasion of the USSR. Turkey could have joined to settle scores and take care of REGIONAL operations not knowing that they might be dragged into the future storm on the Ost front?
Perhaps...

The only thing in this scenerio which I can not imagine, is what incentive Turkey would have in joining the Axis?

Surely if you are not ready for war, revenge cant be your only reason for joining, or can it?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old March 10th, 2008, 05:50 AM
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Default Re: Turkey joins the Axis in 1940 After France Falls

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Originally Posted by Sloniksp View Post
Perhaps...

The only thing in this scenerio which I can not imagine, is what incentive Turkey would have in joining the Axis?

Surely if you are not ready for war, revenge cant be your only reason for joining, or can it?
Good point. Any govt with a fascist leaning would be tempted to side with Germany AND Russia in 1940 since the two were on paper allies at that time. In this context, it's plausible for Turkey to set its eyes on its former territories in the south with France out of action and UK teetering on the brink. Turkey could assume it has a secure border with the USSR since Germany and Russia had just divided Poland.
That's how I think it would look to observers in 1940.
Since the Turks were aware of their military deficiencies, I would say that the only thing that would induce Turkey to join Germany as an ally would be for Germany to successfully invade England across the Channel. In my view, Turkey would be just going for the spoils of war, much like what the Russians did to Japan in 1945.
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Old March 10th, 2008, 02:30 PM
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Default Re: Turkey joins the Axis in 1940 After France Falls

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Originally Posted by Falcon Jun View Post
Good point. Any govt with a fascist leaning would be tempted to side with Germany AND Russia in 1940 since the two were on paper allies at that time. In this context, it's plausible for Turkey to set its eyes on its former territories in the south with France out of action and UK teetering on the brink. Turkey could assume it has a secure border with the USSR since Germany and Russia had just divided Poland.
That's how I think it would look to observers in 1940.
Since the Turks were aware of their military deficiencies, I would say that the only thing that would induce Turkey to join Germany as an ally would be for Germany to successfully invade England across the Channel. In my view, Turkey would be just going for the spoils of war, much like what the Russians did to Japan in 1945.
I am in 100% agreement! That is my point... we can't look at the situation as we know it but how it looked to Turkey in 1940. I think you made a good point here and I conceed that a more convincing argument or a series of pro Axis events would have been needed to pull Turkey into the alliance. If Sea Lion had been launched OR Spain had joined the Axis OR the Iraq/Iran revolts had been sooner or more sucsessful (Each of those could be a "what if").

Ultamatly, Turkey sat on the fence still licking its wounds from the earlier confilct because nither side made a good case for an alliance that would benifit Turkey and have little or no risk in their weakend military state.
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