Wow a bad title I know. I am not making light of it just curious if Jews were not mass killed what would the modern reaction to Germany be? Would modern day Israel exsist and if so what would the political climate be like in the mideast?

Interesting thought. I believe there was a thread similar to this. I would think that Nazism would not have flourished since this was their strongest weapon in getting voted into the Reichstag. They gave the German people a scapegoat for losing the First World War as well as for the depression. Without giving the German people a scapegoat, I really don't believe they could have succeeded. Perhaps, using the communists as a scapegoat could have been used. How successful?????

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Without the Jewish factor the Nazi's could not blame the Bolshevik's for the stab in the back for one good reason, Russia pulled out of WW1. So are we talking about the Nazis come to power and just kick out the Jews? Say for example when Poland fell they were all shipped off to Poland to start a new life. Not sure if this scenario could be as the Nazis needed a escape goat to use as a weapon to get them to power.

As for your point about Israel the Bible tells us the Jews will return home and they have.

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Man of the Year 1942

Regards, Richard

I was going to say which Holocaust.

More interesting question is how Russia and the former Soviet Republics would look today if 20 million of them weren't kill by Hitler's war machine, or how China would fare if millions of its people weren't snuffed out by the Japanese.

Hard to say as to me they are nothing but statistics, I can't determine who was a brilliant doctor on the verge of curing cancer or who was just a farmer.

War is hell.

While respecting anyone's bravery in dipping their toe into such potentially turbulent territory for a 'what if' I do think it's worth remembering that outside of any military/political discussion the most important result of there having been no Holocaust would be that Millions of innocents, Children, women, & men, would not have been murdered by bastards.

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Agreed.

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Man of the Year 1942

Regards, Richard

Again it may seem almost coldhearted to start this thread. I am not saying that the death of the jews was any more/less important than any other deaths. Obviously when a man fails to recognize anothers humanity, he loses his own. The question i am asking is whether or not a Jewish state in the mideast would currently be in place if not for the events that took place?

If the Holocaust didn't happen, then Germany would have won the war. This is because if Germany hadn't spent so much time, man power, materials, and equipment carrying out their wretched genocide, than they could have used those SS guards to fight the Russians and the Americans. Actually it didn't matter if the SS had sen more people to fight the Americans, they still would have lost, because the USA is just SO good. Nobody beats the USA!

Good point, but what if they had developed the Madagascar Plan and expelled all Jews there? The proposal was that the island would be annexed by Germany as part of the surrender of France. Still permits scapegoating.

The Madagascar Plan

For someone who is obsessed with WW2, I would have expected a more constructive post.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Obsessed, how old are you?

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Best Regards,
JW

well Slip if you read his other post, i'm guessing pretty young!

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Scott

Plus there would be no Israel. Palestine would still be intact as a free independent Sovereign nation and we would have never ever known war in the Middle East for the last 60 years.[/quote]

Are you saying that the war between Iran and Irag a ways back was because of Jews? As we are seeing in modern day Iraq, the Arabs are not always fighing because of Isreal or even religion. Tribal warfare is anything but new to the region.

This could not have happened. Hitler's belief system which drove him to wage war also had him convinced that wiping out "Jewry" was his divine mission in life. You could not have had WWII without the holocaust, because a Hitler who was not interested in eliminating "Jewry" would also not be interested in launching WWII.

So, having said that, suppose that the Pope had come out against the oppression of the Jews after Kristallnacht or after the killings became apparent, and we now know that the Pope knew full well the killings were going on soon after they started.

So, given a courageous Pope, the Pope could have done three things. First, send a message to Hitler that the Concordat will be torn up if the persecution of Jews continues, Second, make an announcement something like "Any Catholic who participates in the persecution of Jewish persons will be immediately excommunicated". And third, give a warning to the Jewish people of Europe, broadcast from every pulpit, every means possible, of what "resettlement" really means and telling them to fight and not to meekly go as lambs to the slaughter.

What would Hitler do then? Suppose he calculates that losing the support of the catholic church is a larger penalty than he is willing to pay to settle the "Jewish" problem using death camps.

I think then Hitler would have used the Jews as slave labor and they would have died anyway. Or he would have put them in special battallions and sent them to the Russian front. His belief system would not have allowed him to treat the Jewish people with anything remotely like human rights. Nothing much in their treatment would have changed except the death camps. The means would have just been more subtle.

There's another part of this beyond merely the Holocaust issue.

While an overly pragmatic Nazi could have found a way to make use of all the Jewish people in Germany and the occupied countries and still making scapegoats out of them*, let's look at the other angle.

Suppose the whole Untermensch theory had been handled a bit differently. Suppose all those Ukrainian nationalist types had been courted rather than put down? How many partisans (which drew off how many Landsers?) would have fought FOR Germany, or at least alongside her, for their independence (or a facsimile thereof?)?

So, now you have all the troops and logistical support that were wasted on guarding, transporting, and killing Jews moved up to the front lines. You've got Jews contributing to the war effort, rather than taking resources away. You've got thousands of troops that aren't fighting partisans, but on the front lines, and a good number of those partisans fighting the Red Army with you!

Puts a different spin on things, eh?

*I'm not agreeing, I'm just speculating!

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Always on the lookout for good information on 6.SS-Nord

"If you don't like the way we do things here, go to a different jail!"

von Rundstedt you seem pretty up tight about this whole thing. We can discuss the issue without getting out of hand cant we?

Speer is right though there would still be lots of conflict in the Mid East regardless of Isreal.

The Holocaust was a waste of time, men, and effort. But I seem to remember saying this in another thread....

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The Muslim Brotherhood “must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands..." — Mohamed Akram. http://jihadwatch.org/

During German occupation of Ukraine, the country at one point was almost split in half, as Western Ukraine sided with Germany against Stalin. There were many skirmishes between the two sides as a result. Many partisans were either Soviet soldiers left behind or were men who had ran and hid in the woods either loyal to the Soviet Union or who had lost everything ( including their families ) to the advancing Germans. These men could not be counted on for German support. They afterall were partisans for a reason.

As for the "Jews" they were guarded by second even third grade men, hardly qualifying as troops, or were volunteers and forced laborores from other countries. So as for "thousands of troops" being freed, they were more on the lines of bodies which would have probably faired worse then the German allies.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

---------You make a good point comaraden. The fact that even up to the last days of the third Reich the transportation of the Jews had priority over every other service, even food or ammunition for the front should tell you how different things would have been under different circumstnaces. Had the holocost not happened I am also certain that many patriotic Jews would have been at the front lines along side their Christain, Protestant and athiest comrades. Considering that National Socialist is essentially a godless movement (nothing can be held in higher esteam than the state) the logistical differences alone would have been considerable. The thing is Europe was anti-Semetic before Adolf Hitler came to power, it wasn't until crystal-naucht that the most serious moves toward the final solution were being made. Had the perseqution of the Jews been limited to the same level as the rest of Europe (not including the USSR) wether or not it would have altered the conclusion of the European theater one thing is certain the shape of the middle east would have been definately different.

The Bue Max

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"I'd rather have a German Division in front of me, than a French division behind me"

Gen. George S. Patton

The teachings of the Torah,(jewish law)
"Exile means that jews are required to be loyal citizens in every country in which they live.Force of arms and violence against any people,including in the holy land, is forbidden. Throughout the centuries,all jewery believed that the end of the jewish exile would come about,via miraculous Divine means and usher in the peaceful salvation of all mankind. It will be a time of universal peace and brotherhood, in service of the one God. Redemption from exile never meant a materialistic 'state of israel'.
Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss,
Neturei Karta International
Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism

Final solution was 1942 wasn't it, and at that stage outcome of war would be same. Many lives would be spared obviously.