What do you think would've happened if the Soviets weren't the ones to take Berlin? Do you think it might have affected the Cold War?

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"Full Throttle And No Breaks!"

First off there was already a understanding that the US and Brit armys would meet the Soviet armys somewhere west of Berlin. So, you have to specify under what circumstances the Western armys would advance east of their assumed Area of Operations to Berlin.

Second, the original assumption by the Allied leaders, including the USSR was that Germany would be jointly occupied and governed as a single entity. Rather than split into four independant occupation zones. The zone system emerged postwar from inter Allied squabbling, and had as much to do with French views as Stalinist plotting.

The most likely result would be the western army leaving the Berlin region a little after the war and the occupation zones established as historically. The next likely result is that the French idea would be dropped and a single joint occupation be established. This is to the Soviet Unions advantage as their occupation authorites can loot all of Germany and support Communists locally everywhere.

Assuming a result where Berlin is included in a US/British occupation zone. With the USSR holding only a token part, or nothing of Germany. then the Cold was has its frontier a couple hundered kilometers further east. The USSR may be reluctant to evacuate Vienna in return.

If the British and U.S. forces took Berlin, they would throw away the lives of the men that fought for that city as afterwards the city would be given to the Russians as agreed at the Yalta conference.

Unless ofcourse this agreement never took place or was simply ignored.


Not to mention at the time of the conference, Zhukov was 40 miles from Berlin

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Going with the what if, I have to go with Slon on this one. The Western allies would have paid a heavy price for Berlin unless the Germans not put up as much of a stiff resistance and surrender to the much more lenient Western allies than the vengeful Russians. But since there were plenty of Waffen SS units there, I believe they would have fought on and the Allies would be paying a stiff price for prestige because according to the agreement, all area East of the Elbe would be under Russian control. Berlin would be evenly split as it was and the cold war would be worse since the Russians would be even more distrusting of the West since they would have gone beyond the Elbe.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Could the western armies have taken Berlin? I have read that the city was a fortress, those Flak towers are really quite well built for example and we all know just how well a city can be fortified and defended. I believe they could have but only at horrendous cost and a much longer war.

It depends on how many German soldiers threw down their weapons and surrendered. As the western armys advanced into Germany they found the resisitance uneven. As long as the German soldiers remained under the eyes of the military police and duty bound officer they fought, but when the opportunity came they usually surrendered. By late April entire battalions were giving up enmasse as the dicipline broke down.

Of course there are examples of pockets of stiff resistance. The defenders of the Ruhr continued to fight. They were not pressed very hard tho. It was enough for the US army to surround the area. There was a hard fight at the city of Kassel. For whatever reason the Germans fought very hard there. The US soldiers reported that many civilians fought alongside the soldiers.

In the Berlin region I am estimating only the fantatics like the SS would resist the British or US advance. Even they might be inclined to fight only until the situation was truely hopless, rather than to death. In reading the accounts of the common soldiers of the Wehrmacht there are many descriptions of the soldiers fleeing Berlin in small groups and as entire units in the hope of reaching the British Army before the Soviet soldiers caught them. Werner Adamcyzk in his autobiography describes how after his artillery battery fired its last cannon rounds at enemy tanks in Berlin the officers ordered the men onto the vehicals and the group drove as fast as possible west. Adacyzk decribed the roads as clogged with Wehrmacht soldiers moving west.

If one of the US armys was to capture Berlin it would probablly follow the same plan as the Soviet commanders. The city would first be surrounded. Then reduced with heavy artillery and air support as was the US armys habit. The sort of casualtys the RKKA suffered taking Berlin would have been less likely in the case of the US Army. Not sure how the British would have acted.

Two things.

1, the americans and brits would have to surrender territory to the Soviets and allow partial Soviet control of East Berlin or.

2, tell the Soviets no deal, we reneg on the Yalta conference and if you want Berlin then come and take it off us.

If the 2nd option happens, then the Soviets are faced with

1, basically suck eggs and accept the situation (this would be a monumental slap in the face to Stalin)

or

2, Stalin decides that alliances mean nothing and launches an offensive on the western allies and what remains of the Third Reich.

A pretty scenario, either way. Better keep to the Yalta Conference terms. Otherwise what would the benefit be for the Allies?

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

And how does this help the Eastern European nations already occupied by the Soviets ?????
At the time the Allies realised that short of going to war against the Soviets the only way that they could try and secure some sort of stable post war solution was to try and work with the Soviets, and with the benifit of hindsight we can say that this was indeed the sensible thing to do.

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

That is difficult to answer but those nations could get assurances of true democratic independence and turn against the Soviet Regime. But i can see one issue how to beat the Soviets and that would ultimately be decided by Truman, he would no doubt use nukes if it came to it. I would say if armed conflict did arise then Truman would authorise an atomic attack on Moscow and then on Stalingrad/Leningrad i personally would opt for Leningrad for its higher civilian occupation and because of the location of the Soviet Baltic Fleet.

Spoken like true Rundstedt.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

And, whats the point to all this attention on Berlin? The region was predominately agricultural, but not the most productive. The city had some industry, which had been bombed to ruins. It is not a critical transportation center for Europe. No one suggests the industrial Silesian region or the heavily industrial Bohemia should have been denied to the Soviet advance. No, folks want to squabble for a countryside populated by aristocratic Junkers gentleman farmers and a ruined city of government employees.

Yes you may be correct but it was the symbolism of the Nazi Regime, just like had the Nazi Regime raising the Nazi Party Standard on either London or Moscow, the Soviets milked the fact they got there first and planted the Hammer and Sickle on the Reichstag, Imagine say the Americans planting the Stars and Stipes or the Brits planting the Union Jack on the Reichstag, no doubt it would be a slap in the face to Stalin, but having said that it was fitting that the Hammer and Sickle was the one raised.

And if anyone forgets what that looked like, just take a glanceat my Avatar!

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Oh, well we had already raised a flag in Nurenberg and several million Allied soldiers had pissed in the Rhine along side Patton. More than enough symbolism.

Ha! The Red Army hangs its flag over the Reichstag and the U.S. Army pisses in Germany's river!

This is a joke, no backlash needed

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Quote:

This is a joke, no backlash needed

awe, darn, I was bowed up and ready to have a go atacha.

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Best Regards,
JW

I understood

One forgotton bit of post WWII is that the RKKA did occupy Vienna in April/May 1945. Then the USSR force withdrew from that city and Austria a bit later. That area was inside the Western Allies territory according to the Yalta agreement & the USSR did not fight over it.

A point well made..... Stalin was good at keeping treaties. Unfortunately he and the Soviet people paid dealry for this on 22 june, 1941.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Yes, but the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact or Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was the reason the WW2 started in the first place....

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