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What If? Alternate History: Speculate about WWII battles that never were. Could the Axis have won? What if Hitler had the bomb?

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old May 24th, 2008, 12:47 AM
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Default Re: Ardennes 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipdigit View Post
I show the 2nd having the 741st Tank, the 612th, 629th TD Battalions attached to during the Oct, Nov, Dec and Jan. and the 644th attached to 12 Dec until the end of Jan. This last one was not in the Schee Eiffel. Also attached was the 462nd Auto Weapons Batt.
I passed this one over without thinking it through. With the 741st there would be between 45 & 60 tanks, depending on strength that week. For the 612th & 629th thats about 30+ each. So, at least 100 & perhaps 130 tanks & TD. Thats as many as the typical Pz Divsion had in the Ardennes.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old May 24th, 2008, 01:21 AM
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Default Re: Ardennes 1944

Didnt answer why its odd...

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Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
... but according to a number of historians he did play a vital role in the battle....
What about the other number?

What exactly did he do here?
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Old May 24th, 2008, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: Ardennes 1944

Well put..
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old May 24th, 2008, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Ardennes 1944

What did Monty do? Not much. He was put in command of the Northern shoulder of the Bulge. Moving XXX Corps to the Meuse he established a series of defensive positions along that river. The US troops now under his command established a defensive line between the Meuse and the original front on the Schee Eifel area.
After that, he did essentially little or nothing.
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Old May 24th, 2008, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Ardennes 1944

i have a book simply called...44...i do not remember the authours name or nationality,but i recall a german officer commenting on u.s infantry tactics during the early bulge offence.he commented on the superb infantry attacks,ability to hold ground captured in counterattacks,but lacking ability during tactical retreats or withdrawals.i cannot remember the officers name,but if you can find a copy,it makes very good reading indeed.lee.
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Old May 24th, 2008, 06:34 PM
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Default Re: Ardennes 1944

It seems Monty did save the US 7th Armored division from being annihilated at St vith though even if he himself did not attack until early 1945??!

Armchair General Magazine - We Put YOU in Command! » Ike: World War II’s Indispensable General, Part 6

Also on " Battle for the Rhine" by R. W. Thompson

"...Hasbrouck sought permission to withdraw to strong positions west of Salm. Permission was refused. Hasbrouck had no illusions but that this meant " the end of the 7th Armored division", but Montgomery, hearing of this astounding refusal, indefensible on any grounds, insisted upon withdrawal in the face of fierce and bitter opposition from Generals Ridgeway and Hodges.The brave defenders of St. Vith were saved."
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Old May 24th, 2008, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Ardennes 1944

I'll have to double check, but the 7th Armored HQ was probablly not in the St Vith pocket, or the "Goose Egg" pocket formed further west. The HQ of the 106th was used by the different commanders in the St Vith pocket as it had the communications and staff. About half the 106th was there, a RCT of the 28th and two Combat Commands from the 7th and 9th Armored. When the CO of the 106th suffered cardiac failure one of the CC comanders took command the composite Divsion.

Evacuation of the pocket was a controversy within First Army & the Corps . Part of the rational for keeping it was the lack of knowledge about the status of the surrounded regiments of the 106th, and second the lack of knowledge about the real strength of the enemy on its flanks. There was also the idea that the east west road thru St Vith should be denied the enemy as long as possible. It was also wanted to see the results of the inital contact between the newly arriving reinforcements and the leading Germans.

Ridgeways views on the situation in that week are interesting.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 04:39 AM
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Default Re: Ardennes 1944

There was a bit of confusion with command for a while, due to the realtive ranks of the commanding generals and who had seniority. The 7th Armored was attached at the direction of Gen Ridgway, to the 106th Infantry Division, under Gen Jones. At that point the 106th ID consisted only the 424th IR and the 112th IR of the 28th ID. As such, the 7th Armored (or what was left of it after the vicious fight at St Vith and the villages betwen it and Vielsalm) was part of the proposed Fortified Goose Egg.

Jones was actually relieved of command of the 106th before he had the heart attack and was made deputy commander of XVIII Airborne Corps.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 05:13 AM
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Default Re: Ardennes 1944

The 7th AD was by the 24th of December spread between approxmately the Baraque de Fraiture crossroads and Manhay northwest of Bastogne along the N 15. In these positions it fought 2nd SS Panzer in their last ditch attempt to reach the Meuse. This attack failed but not before causing major disruptions of the division even if casualties were relatively light.
In the end, 7th AD held their position at Manhay and the Germans were forced to withdraw. Monty played no role in this part of the battle tactically or operationally.
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