What if Germans had captured Moscow in 1941

GrossBorn · #1 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2008, 07:11 PM

If Germany had captured Moscow in 1941, what was the next defensive line for the Soviet Army. Is the region east of Moscow similar in geography to the area between Moscow and Smolensk? Were there additional river lines for defense? Does anyone know of any Soviet contingency plans, if Moscow had been lost?

PzJgr · #2 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2008, 07:44 PM

Howdy GrossBorn, this was already discussed here;
If the Germans had captured Moscow, what do you think would have happened?.

Take a look at our archives and you will see a lot of interesting discussions. Happy posting.

GrossBorn · #3 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2008, 08:08 PM

Thanks...searched a few pages but didn't see that thread.

Actually, that thread didn't have any of the answers I was looking for...
1. Possible defensive lines east of Moscow
2. Actual Soviet contingency plans if Moscow fell

I wasn't really looking for a discussion on the outcome of the war. I don't think it would have really made a difference in the long run, but more the short-term consequences on the Soviet Army as it moved eastward in retreat.

PzJgr · #4 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2008, 08:22 PM

I see. That is a good question as far as the Soviet contingency plans if Moscow fell. All I have ever heard is that the government did move East but Stalin and the STAVKA stayed in Moscow to fight it out. How long they would stay is a good question. I doubt if if Stalin would have allowed himself to be surrounded and left in the bag. So I guess it is anybody's call unless someone found some info on such plans.

Sloniksp · #5 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2008, 08:31 PM

The contigency was this.

Most of the Soviet Staff actually expected Moscow to fall. As a result Kubyshev was designated as the temporary capital in case the city fell. It was about 600 miles or so to the east and pretty much all of the Soviet Staff and Stavka were there, including Molotov and even Lenin.

A skeleton force remained in Moscow along with an armored train to escort Stalin and the Generals to safety in case all failed.

Moscow itself was booby trapped. 1200 buildings including the Kremilin Govt. Buildings and even the Bolshoi Theatre were rigged with explosives as these were the first buildings which would have surely been visited by the German High Command.

Partisan groups were already set up to continue the fight and were even given special assignments after the city fell.

The biggest problem that the Germans might have very well faced was getting out of the city if ever captured. Germany would have lost a tremendous amount of men and reinforcements would have been minimal if any.

Example: In the first 6 months on the Eastern Front, Germany suffered 1 million casualties but only received 200 thousand replacements. At the same time the Red Army ( while suffering casualties ) actually grew in size by 2 million.

Hope this helps

PzJgr · #6 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2008, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sloniksp

Moscow itself was booby trapped. 1200 buildings including the Kremilin Govt. Buildings and even the Bolshoi Theatre were rigged with explosives as these were the first buildings which would have surely been visited by the German High Command.

Yes, I have read the very bad experiences the Germans had with these booby traps in Kharkov in 41'. Can't remember from where though.

GrossBorn · #7 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2008, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sloniksp

The contigency was this.

Most of the Soviet Staff actually expected Moscow to fall. As a result Kubyshev was designated as the temporary capital in case the city fell. It was about 600 miles or so to the east and pretty much all of the Soviet Staff and Stavka were there, including Molotov and even Lenin.

A skeleton force remained in Moscow along with an armored train to escort Stalin and the Generals to safety in case all failed.

Moscow itself was booby trapped. 1200 buildings including the Kremilin Govt. Buildings and even the Bolshoi Theatre were rigged with explosives as these were the first buildings which would have surely been visited by the German High Command.

Partisan groups were already set up to continue the fight and were even given special assignments after the city fell.

The biggest problem that the Germans might have very well faced was getting out of the city if ever captured. Germany would have lost a tremendous amount of men and reinforcements would have been minimal if any.

Example: In the first 6 months on the Eastern Front, Germany suffered 1 million casualties but only received 200 thousand replacements. At the same time the Red Army ( while suffering casualties ) actually grew in size by 2 million.

Hope this helps

Thanks...good info. As a follow-up: What is the geography like between Moscow and Kubyshev? Is it flat plains? Forests and hills? Marshy? Interested in how the Soviets would have defended the area.

Slipdigit · #8 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2008, 10:38 PM

Quote:

including Molotov and even Lenin

Lenin? or do you mean his cadaver?

GrossBorn · #9 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slipdigit

Lenin? or do you mean his cadaver?

now that's funny

Sloniksp · #10 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2008, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrossBorn

Thanks...good info. As a follow-up: What is the geography like between Moscow and Kubyshev? Is it flat plains? Forests and hills? Marshy? Interested in how the Soviets would have defended the area.

In terms of geography, not many obstacles really. Few forests ( nothing major ) and a few hills. The city ( now Samara ) however stood on both sides of the volga ( like Stalingrad ).

The reason it was chosen was due to its distance from Moscow ( far enough away and at the same time close enough to return ) and because it was a huge industrial city.

In terms of defending the area, this was simply not necessary. The Germans struggled with protecting their flanks and supply lines before reaching Moscow. Doing the same with now less men, 600 mile longer supply lines and more vulnerable flanks, was simply not possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slipdigit

Lenin? or do you mean his cadaver?

PPSH!!!

Actually this was the only time in Russian history when Lenin had been moved.