Originally Posted by PactOfSteel
the Germans should have defeated Russia, I do not believe Russia did anything clever or intelligent to win, they had sheer numbers and bitter cold on their side is all.


Sorry Pactofsteel but this thread and what you have said here is absurd.
The russians did nothing 'intelligent to win the war' what about the tank battle of kurst, or the extremely succesfull encirclement of stalingrad and the desturction of the 6th army, or the holding of lenningrad, or the invention of the t-34, were all these flukes that nature gave them?, and about the fact the russians used the 'winter' against the Germans the Russians didn't control the weather and didn't use it against the Germans the Germans used it against themselves by not capturing Russia faster.

Sheer Weight of numbers don't win wars just look at the Russians losing in ww1 against an inferior german army even then the russians had the cold you refer to so why couldn't the Germans win this time? Simple, because Russia is just too damned big for any one nation to attack and hope to control, supply lines get streched and cut to often, the weather is horrible in the winter and the people are very good at defending the past show us that.

I am happy for you to be a neo-nazis talking about how the germans should have won the war and how they are the better race, however the truth is far from that, for example if the germans were so great why did they use horsedrawn supplies? or allow such weapons as the elephant to waste valuable industrial resources?, or even why did they lose the 6th army at stalingrad, why did they allow themselves to be surrounded and destoyed? Look I could go on all day about german mistakes, they are not the supreme race ww2 has shown that to us.

Now I don't in anyway think that the Russians are perfect or anyway race for that matter every nation made mistakes in there politics and military discsions I just think that saying that one is perfect is just adsurd because history has taught us this over and over again.

Just one more thing, if the Germans were so superior then the rest of the world then I ask you this question, "who won the war again"?

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awesome! Tomcat - Just one more thing, if the Germans were so superior then the rest of the world then I ask you this question, "who won the war again"?

they sure got close, remember they had a two-front war and thats impossible to win.
YouTube - Juni 1941 Operation Barbarossa in colour

hahaha you say they got close, so the desert war was close was it with Rommel beaten, or the Germans almost beating the Russians, it would have never have happened with German commitments else where, and then with D-day they were even futher from 'close' to winning.

It dosn't matter how many countries Germany went against because she chose them all to go to war with she chose her own fate.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

If the invasion started on it's proposed date say without Mussolini invading Greece and causing the Balkan interlude I can see the Germans getting into Moscow by November.
The Battle of Moscow would have been worse than Stalingrad and with the Soviet counter offensive in December I can see a large number of German troops being cut off in Moscow.
The Germans where perhaps lucky they didnt make it to Moscow in our time line.

It dosn't matter what timeline they are in they still would have lost in the end anyway they had too may enemys at this time, and the Americans were getting along to being another.

There logistics were not properly prepared to sustain a lengthy war over many miles of land and various countries, her man power was limited by her size as well as her industrial power even with captured factories, her fleet was to small to help in any major role so she was confined strongly(other then raiders) to there docks and her airforce althought strong was lead badly and not properly eqquiped with a lack of heavy bombers and obselote JU87s in my opinion.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

i think had hitler gone on the right date its probable that he could have defeated russia.

The right date being?

Keep in mind that Barbarossa day was also determined by the state of the ground, earlier than what it was and it was considered to be too wet and soft for the panzers, it had to have a dry enough spell to dry.

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

Hitler was taking alot of chances and "Ifs". If the weather stayed good. If they could advance rapidly before winter set in. If the Soviets could be steamrolled by the Blitzkrieg tactics. If the Soviets collapsed like a house of cards. If.....If....If...ect.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

Per what you say Adolf would have more than enough qualification to be a member of this forum, he would have shone in the What-If section

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

I think the invasion was doomed from the start. No matter if it started earlier or a year later with better equipment. Hitler forgot history's #1 lesson "Never get involved in a Land war in Asia!".

Had the Axis taken Moscow at first it would seem like a victory untill the Russians were able to regroup. Hitler would have suffered the fate of Napolean, Holding a destroyed city with long supply lines and ever increasingly hostile and uncoperative natives. I just don't think Western Europeans understand the vastness that is Russia!?!

Through out the ages every empire from Rome to China has built walls and boundrys knowing the vastness of Asia would only conquer the would be conquerer. Even Holding the "A-A" line is a pipe dream if you can imagine how many divisions it would take even in static possition just to man the line!

The Invasion was a foolish gamble from the beginning and if Hitler had spent more time studying History and less time drawing post cards this disaster could have been avoided.

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"If your going to get it, take one with you!"

You mean these roads?


And these are modern photos from some parts of Russia, imagine what they looked like 60 years ago during the spring or fall wet seasons!
I would imagine that they would as they have pretty much all been at war with Russia at one time or another, and all have one thing in common.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

I would imagine that they would as they have pretty much all been at war with Russia at one time or another, and all have one thing in common. [/quote]

Every confilict with Russia with the exception of the Mongol invasion has been on the western or southern fringes of Russia. Even all of western Russia including the moscow district up to the A-A line is about the same size as all of Western Europe.

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"If your going to get it, take one with you!"

Hehe

And lets not forget that when the Mongols invaded, Russia was not a unified country.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Damn your logic and knowledge of Russian history!! LOL

__________________
For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Yes he would of and probably would have come up with some more crazy "What Ifs" LOL.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

Imagine these roads after several panzer divisions had transited them, one absolute logistical nightmare, just re-enforces the fact that Russia circa 1940's roads were glorified goat tracks.

Watch it! Don't say D*** too often in the forum!

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."