True, I was only making a general remark.

Boiled down to the bone it means you can not really be serious about an invasion.

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Regards, Richard


"Open channel D"

Fry is cool, but Bender is my personal hero.

Operation SEA LION and the Role of the Luftwaffe in the Planned Invasion of England, by Karl Klee (1955).

http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/numbered_studies/468155.pdf

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

Operation SEA LION and the Role of the Luftwaffe in the Planned Invasion of England, by Karl Klee (1955).

http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/numbered_studies/468156.pdf

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

Three to Five years is simply not possible. Ok maybe a Z-plan times five is a little over zealous but times three would easily put Germany as an equivalent to the RN. I know This is incorrect but as of right now I have found six shipyards that built ships of cruiser size or larger just prior and after the start of war. Each shipyard shows that at least two ships this size could be built at one time(one only built one and another had three). I also broke down the approximate time to build and commission each type of vessel. When I multiplied this number by the number of ships built at one time I got 14-15 years just for the Z-plan and we know Germany wasn’t capable of that plan in it’s allotted time frame, as she just didn’t have the steel to throw at the project. While these shipyards are building up the KM other yards are still producing U-boats, minesweepers, patrol boats ect. When I thought these figures into the size I estimated the fleet would need to be(about 1000 ships to support 2200 transports) I got 47 years just to build the capital ships. Factoring in that my info is as yet incomplete I deducted 12 years to get a grand total of 35 years. Hence 3-4 decades.


Throughout this whole build-up, Germany and her allies are still at war. Germany still finds that N. Africa needs more troops to help the Italians. The U-boat number would most likely not be dropped for some time. Planes are still needed to fight the Battle of Britain, and the RN is in no mood to just sit by and watch the Germans build an invasion force. While one group of freshly built warships awaits the next round to be finished they are out on patrols and fighting battles with the RN.
The largest obstacle for the KM to now overcome is men and resources. Simply put Germany doesn’t have the steel for this kind of venture. Men can be found since there is no eastern front but there is no experience amongst its ranks and will fight poorly for a little while(1 year?).


Time to commission each type of ship:
Carrier: 4 years – I got this figure with two ships being launched after two years but neither was commissioned so I added an additional two years
Battleship – Around 3-4 years depending on size of the yard
Cruisers - this I got 3-4 years however as the industries gear up I decided on 2-3 as more likely
Pocket Battleships(is this the official term?) – Slightly smaller than a battleship with cruiser armor 2.5-3 years


Note: As my Research unfolds I will update this post . Am still looking into French shipyard use for the KM.


At least we can agree on some things

Mike

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"When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." -General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson
"The conqueror is always a lover of peace; he would prefer to take over our country unopposed."-Karl von Clausewitz

But time was against them. The RAF was increasing in strength relative to the LW for the BOB and would have continued to do so until well into 41 and if the LW continued its efforts vs GB probably would have until the LW was ground down to nothing. The British army was also at an all time low during the summer of 1940 after that it was simply too strong for the force the Germans could land.

This is quite an interesting and vocal thread. Here's my two cents worth:

I think all sides have valid points on the pros and cons of Germany invading England. On paper, invading England would be a plus for Germany but in reality, Germany didn't have the resources to properly mount an amphibious operation in the scale needed at that time. That's historical fact.

Now I respectfully disagree to the views aired that a country without any amphibious ops experience cannot learn how to do it. It's not out of the realm of possibility for Germany to learn how. The problem would be on how they would go about in learning the basics of it.

Sea Lion in its basic form wouldn't work. But I do think that tweaking the plan, plus a little creative thinking, another way could have been found to mount an invasion of England within the resources available for Germany. Of course, I say this in the context that Barbarossa will not be mounted.

The basics of the plan I think that might be workable:
Germany raises the scuttled French fleet and use it.
A sustained aerial campaign on British bases and installations in England (ignore the cities) while developing better aircraft to deal with the RAF.

Germany military observers study the ongoing Pacific campaign. They could learn a lot from it. That's not impossible to do.

In short, invading England is not out of the realm of possibility. I wouldn't say this would succeed but it would increase Germany's chances of succeeding.

The problem[/b]s[/b] with sea lion is that they are starting big with jury rigged equipment, without air superiority, with a huge naval inferiority, and at best a quickly vanishing local superiority on the beaches.
It also must assume that the Soviets don't attack Germany in the intervening years.
Even the combined German and French fleet is inadequate vs the RN. Just what ships are you talking about raising? Also incorproating French ships into the km is going to throw a lot more manufacturing and logistics problems into the works.
The LW was destroying itself in the BOB. Continueing to do so is hardly going to improve the situation.
They might indeed learn a lot from the Pacific. Whether this would be enough to give up on an invasion of England is another matter. I doubt in any case that they could achieve the capability to invade prior to the allies achieving a nuclear capability.

Are you suggesting that the Germans wait until 1942 to invade? There was no "Pacific campaign" to observe going on at the time. Not until after Dec of '41. And after that the US is involved. Also in regards to "raising" the French fleet you would have to take into account training and logistics. For even if the Germans were to have the French fleet there would have to be a period of training for the ships of German crews. I seriously doubt there would have been time and trained naval personell available.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

What kind of timeframe are you looking at? Even if the yards existed that were capable, and they may very well have been, how accessible were they to French ships and how likely are the Germans to get the necessary equipment to effect noticeable repairs? How long would this take?
Here are the dates of return to service for the BBs sunk at Pearl Harbor that were raised.

West Virgina July 1944
Tennessee May 1943
California 31 Jan 1944
Nevada After May 1943

These repairs were made at yards that were not subject to aerial attack. The Germans did not enjoy such luxuries.

There were several German ships that were damaged and not sunk; repairs to them were never made good during the war, the Gneisenau being an example. I don't see the damaged and sunk French fleet being nothing more than a drain on the German war effort by being a frequent target of bombers, as was the case of the Strasbourg.

Jean Bart was captured by the Germans, it was such an old ship the Germans never used her as was the Paris, which was foricibly boarded by the British on 3 July 1940 while in Portsmouth. It was used as an accomodation ship.

I just don't see the French Fleet as being of any assistance to the German war effort.

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Best Regards,
JW

I started this thread and I'm going to finish it or at least state my closing statement. Hitler believed England would ally with him, he never thought he would be fighting them, that threw a huge monkey wrench in his plans. They even made Nazi/British friendship badges!

True enough, but it would have taken the Germans years to do so. First they would have to procure proper landing craft then practice using them on a large scale along with developing loading and unloading procedures for their shipping, command and control, and a plethoria of other things before becoming proficent at amphibious assaults.

The first problem for the Germans here is that the majority of the major French fleet units are not accessable to them. Most are in North African ports. The only major fleet unit in France is the battlecruiser Strassbourg and her crew scuttled the ship when the Germans historically tried to take her. The Germans and Italians both made half hearted attempts at salvage but made no serious attempt to raise, let alone repair, her.
Basically, the Germans got nothing bigger than a frigate from the French Navy as a prize. This is not going to change.
A sustained air campaign might work if the Luftwaffe manages to get some leadership that understands how to manage an aerial campaign of attrition along with finding sufficent fuel to sustain it. But, this will take the Germans years to accomplish and is likely never to be fully successful on its own.

In 1940 there was not Pacific campaign. The Pacific war would not start for nearly a year and a half unless you are talking about things like the occasional clash between Japan and Russia or the war in China. None of these would give much useful data to build on.

Basically, so long as Germany does not possess a navy, cannot achieve aerial superiority (unlikely), and cannot cut England's supply lines (almost certain to draw the US into the war) they cannot successfully manage an invasion after July 1940. Its that simple.

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Truth is stranger than bullshit!

can we put this thread to bed?

You can try, but I've found that with Sealion threads they keep getting up and then wander around asking for glasses of water.

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

I agree in saying...Sealion would have resulted in Carnage for the Germans...The remnants of the BEF, the rest of the Army, the Home guard and Most of the British population fighting back, RAF bombs and Bullets, and the RN pounding the ships as they come in, and their supply lines would have been jointly savaged by the RAF and RN.
Thats it, end of story, the end, thread closed.

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With what, my readings of the British failed missions in both French/Low Countries and Norway resulted in the loss of something like 40,000 pows or more, 70,000 vehicles lost 1,000's of artillery pieces lost/captured/destroyed and 1 million tonnes of supplies now in German hands, the British lost something like 400 vessels of all kinds and 100's of aircraft lost and would take at least 18 months to recover, no, Britain was in a far worse situation than what was told to the population at the time, If Germany had a larger amphibious force, Britain im humble opinion would not be able to fend of a German invasion, yeah it would be very costly, but the ends justifies the means, also mentioned local volunteers, I can assure any LDV units that took up arms against any German would be considered Geurilla's and be treated just like any partisan force and if captured instant execution.

Kind of like Zombies ? LOL

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

I'm about to.

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Best Regards,
JW

But will it stay there? LOL MMMMMMMMM....... ZOOOOOMMMMMBBBBIIIEEE thread