And to remember how Hitler reacted to the losses figures at Crete....

__________________

Exactly. No more massive, airborne fallshirmjager operations.

At times durimg the desert war the Luftwaffe managed to successfully neutralize Malta as an offensive base, but this didn't stop the attacks on the convoys. The British had bases in Egypt and the Middle East from which they operated during these times.

__________________
if in doubt....Panic!!!!

Even before Crete there were huge losses of JU-52s. So the loss of this type of aircraft would also have to be factored into a Paratroop attack. And this was in just 5 days against a even smaller country.


"At the start of the Second World War, the RNlAF has a total of 125 combat ready aircraft, including 20 Fokker D-XXI's fighters, 26 Fokker G-Is twin boom fighters, 12 Fokker T-V bombers and 12 Douglas-Northrop 8A-3N bombers, all stationed at airfields in the western part of the Netherlands. During the 10 may 1940 attack by Germany, which lasted 5 days, 328 German aircraft were shot down, including 220 Ju-52 trimotor transporters, at a loss of 94 Dutch aircraft. Most of the training aircraft managed to escape to England, together with other members of the RNlAF, and with these resources a Dutch squadron operating under RAF command is formed : 322 squadron, equipped with different types of Spitfires."

http://www.scramble.nl/nl.htm

__________________


For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Eliminating Malta does nothing to alleviate the major logistic problems of the Germans. Tobruk and Bengahazi are still marginal ports due to the inability of the Germans and Italians to clear them of wrecks. The lack of an alternative to trucking supplies to the front (due to the inability of the Germans and Italians to build a rail line) means that there will still be massive shortages of supplies at the front.
There is no way around this. When it takes five gallons of gasoline to deliver one to the Alamein position for the Germans how can it be otherwise? When the Italians and Germans are running convoys with tankers half full due to a general shortage of petroleum products the same is true.
Malta is largely irrelevant to the situation in North Africa. Rommel was an amateur when it came to logistics. Literally, totally free of interference Rommel could not supply six mechanized divisions 500 to 800 miles from his logistical base in Libya and Tunisa by truck alone.

could a purely air capture of southern england been successful had they planned it in advance?

after dunkirk, the brits would have raised at best 2 divisions. now what if four german airborn divisions captured bomber fields in southern england, landed in more men and material, while keeping me-109s stacked up overhead. the other airfields still with the brits would have been bombed round the clock, while fast boat units would dash across the channel to ship in more men and material? could they have marched to london without heavy tanks and artillery?

I suggest you read this thread carefully along with others on this board mac. Britain had 26 1/2 divisions in England of which just over half were more or less full strength 60 days after Dunkirk. They also had a half dozen immediately after more or less full strength. Germany had exactly one badly mauled parachute division that was the equivalent at its establishment strength of about half a regular infantry division less heavy weapons for an air assault.
Of couse, this doesn't include the 250,000 to 500,000 Home Guard being raised in the same period.

Not at all. Still no chance. For alot of reasons already brought up before in this thread and others on the subject.

"The British government introduced conscription and by May 1940, British Army strength was brought up to 50 divisions. Of these, 13 divisions were in France fighting against the German Western Offensive. After the evacuations from Dunkirk were complete, the British Army had 1,650,000 men.

__________________


For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

whoah, man. i said, had they planned it in advance, meaning they had more airborne troops, transports, longer-ranged fighters and airlift-table weapons. and i'm sure they would have considered more enemies than just two divisions. my mistake, something i read years back concerning dunquerque.

OK. Where do the Germans get these additional units. Paratroops were largely untried until the Low Lands / French campaign. Doubling their number still leaves the Germans with insufficent numbers to overcome British defenses. The other problem is where do the transports come from? Do you propose cutting production on other aircraft like the Ju 88 in favor of more Ju 52? Then, the other problem is pilots. Historically, the Luftwaffe didn't have enough to man all the transport aircraft they had. So, they pulled all the instructors, flight crews, and advanced students from pilot schools to man these aircraft during operations for short periods.
Historically, the transport the Germans did have allowed for a drop of about one half of 7th Fallschirmjäger division or about 3500 men. So, even with a doubling of everything the Germans are still faced with making several drops which over England would have required more than one day to accomplish.

and just in case he missed it,


Even before Crete there were huge losses of JU-52s. So the loss of this type of aircraft would also have to be factored into a Paratroop attack. And this was in just 5 days against a even smaller country.


"At the start of the Second World War, the RNlAF has a total of 125 combat ready aircraft, including 20 Fokker D-XXI's fighters, 26 Fokker G-Is twin boom fighters, 12 Fokker T-V bombers and 12 Douglas-Northrop 8A-3N bombers, all stationed at airfields in the western part of the Netherlands. During the 10 may 1940 attack by Germany, which lasted 5 days, 328 German aircraft were shot down, including 220 Ju-52 trimotor transporters, at a loss of 94 Dutch aircraft. Most of the training aircraft managed to escape to England, together with other members of the RNlAF, and with these resources a Dutch squadron operating under RAF command is formed : 322 squadron, equipped with different types of Spitfires."

http://www.scramble.nl/nl.htm

Thats 220 JU-52s lost in just 5 days against a country where the Germans HAD command of the air.

__________________


For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Which bomber airfields in Southern england ? The established bomber airfields were generally in the Cambridgeshire/Lincolnshire area - the South had the fighter airfields many of which at the time of the BofB were still little more than grass flying fields.....

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

In late 1944 the Nazis hatched a plan for a mass breakout of POWs in Britain, the aim being for them to form a division-sized force which would seize arms and supplies and then march on London. The plan was foiled by complete chance when a German-speaking US officer touring one of the camps overheard a conversation between two prisoners and alerted intelligence.
The fact the Nazi High Command even thought this was possible shows how bad their intelligence on Allied military strength was.

__________________
Regards,

Gordon
History Vault Bookshop
FortressScotland-http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/Historian/

You left out 1st and 2nd Canadian. As for the Home Guard by September the US had provided nearly a half million rifles, old US pattern Lee-Enfields in .30 caliber often seen in photos of Home Guard units with a red or white stripe on them to make the user aware that .303 rounds wouldn't work.
Regardless of losses, the Germans were in no position to launch a major invasion and in even worse shape to launch one that could have been successful.

What "fast boat units" are you referring to? And what types of "fast boat"?They would have to be very large to be able to ship in more men and sufficient materials in order to keep up the attack.

__________________


For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Weren't there also Australian units in Britain at that time? I seem to recall they were bound for somewhere else when war broke out and they were diverted to the UK?

__________________
Regards,

Gordon
History Vault Bookshop
FortressScotland-http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/Historian/

Yes there were.

The The 2nd AIF was amongst the almost 10,000 officers and men to disembark at Gourock UK,on the 17th June 1940. They comprised approximately one-third of the 6th Division and the corps troops raised with it, plus some 450 infantry reinforcements for that Division.

Second Australian Imperial Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Australian Army war diaries - Second World War

__________________


For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Regardless of all the tactical decisions that Hitler could of made. Even If he Invaded England and not Russia, How long would he have lasted as a leader? There is strong evidence of Parkinsons, Drug addiction and possible Epilepsy. Sure, as History unfolded the way it did, the growing pressures of a losing war weighed heavily on him physically and mentally however, even if the war w/ Russia does'nt happen and Sea Lion was a success, would he have been around after much longer after 46'???

Parkinson's does shortens one's life, though, and as he was already showing noticeable signs (no doubt exacerbated by the stress of a losing war) of it in his 50s, I would doubt his life span would extend into the 80s or 90s. Possible, but not probable.

Kai, neurosurgery is your forte, would you care to weigh in on this?

__________________
Best Regards,
JW