If the Germans would have launched Operation Sealion they most likely would have beat England, yes it would have been one bloody battle, England probably wouldn't have surrendered until their last soldier died. Once the Germans defeated them then the Allies wouldn't have been able to launch the D-Day invasion, the Allies would have had to go all the way up through Africa, Italy to finally reach Hitler's fortress Europe. I bet the Allies would have been defeated or retreated due to such heavy losses against a fully equipped Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe. If Hitler had delayed Barbarossa until he defeated England and waited for the Allies to make their final move on him the Third Reich would have most likely prevailed, it was only because Germany's armed forces were so divided when D-Day came that the Allies were able to secure a victory, and once the Germans lost D-Day the war was basically over with. Was there ever a time when Hitler stopped to take a breath? it seemed like he just wanted to Blitzkrieg the world at once.

If Hitler were to wait with Operation Barbarossa and go with Sea Lion first, Barbarossa never would've take place then.
Germans simply would NOT have resorces for it.
And everybody knows that Hitler hated Soviets much more then he disliked British.

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Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or hump it.
Piss on it and walk away

so your saying he would have too many troops in England to attack Russia? and he would be vulnerable to a invasion by the Soviets. This is very true, but then again he wouldn't have had to worry about an attack by the Allies, he would only be fighting Patton and the Brits in Africa and Italy, and since England would have been out of the way he could have deployed troops from Britain to Italy to drive the Allies out of Europe. After then he could have invaded Russia with everything he had.

I'm saying - Axis would've sustained hight casualities and material loses in case of going through with Sea Lion. Resource hog. And it would have certanly took a long time. Counted in years probably. Forget about Barbarossa.

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Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or hump it.
Piss on it and walk away

well I think Operation Sealion would have cost many German lives, come one, England had the Japanese mind-set, "were not surrendering until the last man standing". The Germans probably would have ended up leveling London. I agree it would have taken awhile, and material losses.

How would Germany resupply her forces after they landed?

Just like in Stalingrad....no problem!

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We've been thoroughly over this ground here, and I know of many other boards where Seelöwe has been discussed at lenght. The conclusion reached every time is that it would have been an unmitigated disaster for the Germans.
But, let's recap the situation briefly:

The German plan was to land one regiment from each of nine divisions on three seperate beaches seperated by miles from one and other with the invasion fleet leaving Bolougne, Calais and, Ostend / Antwerp. The initial wave was to take approxmately 96 hours to completely cross and another 72 to get ashore. That equates to ONE WEEK just to land the first wave! This puts the equivalent of just one weak infantry division ashore on each beach.
The one available parachute division was to land behind one of the beaches over a period of about 2 days (the Luftwaffe could only lift about half the division at a time).
With no, nada, none, zip, opposition the Germans could realistically expect to lose 30 to 50% of the landing barges just through beaching them.
The invasion force had little more than a motely collection of motor minesweepers, armed trawlers, and small gunboats for escort with virtually nothing bigger than a 3.7cm AA gun for armament. Many of the barges would have mounted 2 or 3.7cm AA guns. The majority of the crews operating the barges had little or no sailing experiance.

The Royal Navy had 36 destroyers, and about 400 small craft committed to immediately countering an invasion crossing. There were 26 1/2 divisions in England of which about 13 were fully equipped and manned. One was a fully equipped armored division. There were also 6 tank brigades and a number of independent infantry brigades and battalions in existance. The Home Guard numbered about 250,000 men and most had at least basic small arms and a bit of training.

The air situation was that both sides were roughly even in strength and capacity. The British early warning system (eg., radar like CH, CHL, CD and other sets) would have given plenty of warning of the approaching invasion among other systems. Surprise was going to be virtually impossible for the Germans to achieve.

The Germans had nothing beyond a vague plan to return the invasion ships back to France, reload them, and send a second wave across about 10 days after the first wave landed. Of the ports the first wave was obstensively to capture none was capable of supporting much more than a division or two in size.

Basically, from these very bare facts one can see the absurdity of the German plan. They would have tried and it would have been a catastrophic disaster.

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Truth is stranger than bullshit!

By god gents the aliens, dont forget about Germans getting help from aliens!

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

well it would have been like a mini-D-Day for the Nazis, what I would have done is built lots and lots of landing crafts and have hundreds of infantry and tanks invade the coast with the Luftwaffe covering from the air. If Sealion would have worked out like I've said there would be no D-Day, and thats what basically assured victory for the Allies. Cause even if D-Day would have failed the Allies would have tried it again and again, the Germans were spread too thin because of Barbarossa and Africa. You can't win a two-front war, I doubt the Soviets would have invaded Europe during Sealion but thats what Hitler feared.

If D-Day would have failed, (an operation which took years of planning ) what makes you think that it would be tried again and again? The allies wouldnt even have time for a nother one, as the Red Army would be crossing Poland and be at Germany's doorstep by this time.

There were no troops in African by this time.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

D-Day could have easily failed if freaking Hitler wasn't asleep and was able to gave the order to move the Panzer division to oust the Allied forces. But IF D-Day failed wouldn't the Germans had more forces to defend themselves against the Bolshevik hordes?

Interesting how quickly you remind us all that the Russians were "Boshevik Hordes" but fail to give the Germans their knighthood.


Also, you might want to look into "Operation Bagration".

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Please gentlemen, niceties.

Well Operation Seelowe, was a failure once the BEF and 1st French Army was allowed to be rescued, but having said that, Britain was still vulnerable to attack by sea as Britain was very shor of supplies.

The combined Norwegian and North-Western Europe disasters robbed the British of nearly 1 million tonnes of supplies, and mobility, with the loss of over 65,000 vehicles, and hundreds of tanks, armoured personel carriers and aircraft.

Continue this later on

I dont exactly know what you mean by fail to give the Germans their knighthood? The German blitzkrieg on the USSR brought them to their knees, Stalin had already signed a peace pact with Hitler, it was only the cold winter that prevented them from defeating the Bolsheviks. Operation Bagration, yes the codename for the Soviet offensive that cleared German forces from Poland and the Ukraine. What about it?

Okay, I am closing this thread for 3 days, there is no reason for us to reinvent the wheel, as this subject has been discussed ad nauseum. I will reopen it late Sunday night or early Monday morning (US time).

PactofSteel, I want you to read the following threads by then, it will help you to make better arguments.

Operation Sealion - Possible? Outcome?

http://www.ww2f.com/russia-war/20562-operation-bagration.html

http://www.ww2f.com/what-if/11802-what-did-germany-need-win-war.html

http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-general/10810-wehrmacht-overrated.html

http://www.ww2f.com/what-if/20452-how-could-germany-have-won-war.html

http://www.ww2f.com/what-if/19563-could-axis-have-won.html

http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-general/20264-sealion-nazis-ready-face-navy.html

A fully intact French navy for the Germans

How Sealion could have been made workable?

After you have read them, please use the search function (above right) and seach for other threads if you have the time.

The rest of y'all give us some good post in other threads.

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Best Regards,
JW

Okay, this thread has been reopened for business.

Let's see if we can keep it between the ditches this time.

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Best Regards,
JW

Let's get this thread off topic in a hurry !!!!! Happy 2000th post !
Who would have thought Alabama had the stuff you are made of !

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

with all due respect to the moderator I think all my arguments on the subject were valid.

With all due respect, arguments can only be valid if they are backed up by historical fact.

Have you read through the threads recommended by our very own Slipdigit?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Really?

I dont.

Germany was in no position to conduct Sea-Lion.

They had no history of amphibious warfare (unlike the British who had been conducting amphibious/coastal landings for well over a century), they had no specialist landing craft, nor the ability or skills needed to even design them. They also had poor recce of the British coast and a lack of suitable maps or any intel. They also had no available Fallschirmjager having worn both them and the transport fleet out during Weserbung and Fall Gelb.

The Luftwaffe was in no position to dominate the RAF, and would never be. The Kriegsmarine could not challenge the RN in the English Channel and any attempt to cross in converted barges would have been at grave danger from the weather, let alone the RN.

Then, if they did land, you have a force, unable to be re-supplied, fighting a force far larger on it home territory.

I would suggest you look at the Sandhurst wargame in the 1970's that played out Operation Sea-Lion with such notables as Galland and Student as umpires. It ended in a complete defeat for the Germans. Indeed any serious effort at wargaming the operation has ended in the Germans losing badly.

Simply put, the reason Hitler aborted the operation is that he knew it would never succeed given the lack of skills, equipment and doctrine in the German forces with regards to amphibious warfare and faced with a strong RAF & RN.

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"The Americans will always do the right thing ... After they've exhausted all the alternatives."

Winston Churchill

he still left the door wide open for a Allied offensive by not taking care of Great Britain, personally I would have never have started the Russian offensive without taking care of Great Britain.