Do you know what the Germans did in Russia?
Think how many villages were wiped out, how many families thrown out in the snow to freeze to death.
How many civies locked in barns & churches then burnt to death.
How many civilians shot just for Russian.
The Nazis threw out the rule book when they went into Russia.
We can hardly condemn the Soviets for wanting their pound of flesh.
Eye for an eye

With Allies as I said before, sometimes you have to look the other way as long as they get the job done.
This was the job completed.


An Allied flag over Berlin & not the Swastika over London, that's all I care about.

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Don't get me wrong I am in no way defending what the nazi did, I believe the commanders who ordered them should face a tribunal (just as many german officers did after the war) and any soldier who did that on his own accord should also be shot for breaking the rules of war, please don't misunderstand me, because I fully understand and appreciate the situation in Russia and in germany, but I still stand by von runstedt.

But with looking the other way, the soviets did remove the dictator hitler(which I am glad they did) but we must remember that he was replaced by someone who some say was even worse, just look at the cold war, and how long that lasted. What good is it removing one dictator for another just as cruel? was it just because stalin didn't try and invade there land, while hitler did?

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

This ranting on Russian atrocities is really getting boring.

The crimes against the Germans were commited by Russian soldiers on their own accord out of frustration and hatred for an enemy which entered their lives and turned them upside down by killing and destroying everything they ever knew or loved. As a result thousands were punished for it.


The Germans committed these crimes out of ideology and explicit orders from the very top against an entire people with the intension of wiping them out. Upon the completion of these crimes the soldier or soldiers were then rewarded......

As I have said before, had the Red Army fought with the same honor and chivalry in which the Wehrmacht had, then perhaps the German civilians too would have sufferd the same fate that the Russians had.

Just read my signature gentlemen and lets get back on topic.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

fair enough, so what do you think about the original topic question.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

By this time, even if the Germans possessed all which was mentioned and if by some miracle would be able to stop an invasion from the west, they were absolutely helpless against the juggernaut steam rolling from the east.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

I'm not sure we discussed this in this thread, but wasn't the majority of the German troops tied up in any case due to the imminent threat of the real McCoy being Patton's landing with his command (1st US Army Group, see Op. Fortitude, which means Maskirovka in English ) in the Calais region?

So in any case the German forces would be tied up and/or divided.

In any case this does not reflect too well on the German ability to collect strategic intelligence, therefore making them susceptible to manouvres of the FUSAG kind. Command neing therefore weak, it is to be expected that large bodies of troops would therefore be unused.

Besides, the Allies showed once more heir ability to strike where the enemy was weaker or where the blow was unexpected, which are both fine principles for indirect strategy à la Sun Tzu or B. Liddell-Hart. So if there would be such a large preponderance of German troops in Normandy, then the landing would surely fall elsewhere making this what-if senseless.

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Possible alternatives
1) Refocuse on the Italian Campaign possibly with an invasion of Southern France.
2) Liberate(there you go Jaegar) Norway and cut off Germany from Swedish iron ore supplies.
3) Launch a Baltic campaign

wlee15

Of course you mean LIBERATE Norway.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Following on form statment to Za Rodinu's statement, if the germans possessed that many planes they, wouldn't have to limit there plane us, so they could send recon planes in every direction from where the allies could possibly attack there fore eliminating surprise for the allies, and thus the Germans would be able to position there forces accordily, making the invasion very hard if not impossible, for the allies. well anywhere where the germans were currently concentrated. The allies would have to gain air superiority before trying for an invasion.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

If they had held the allied assualt then maybe the possible invasion of England with the Fallshirmjaeger. Operation overlord in reverse.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

I heartily agree with you that the Allies didn't rely entirely on luck in mounting Operation Overlord but I have to regretfully disagree when you say that Sun Tzu has nothing to do with modern warfare displayed during WW2. A lot of his principles have been adapted and I believe, timeless.
My favorite Sun Tzu saying: "The best way to win the war is not to fight the battle at all." (Diplomacy first before fighting, get the best possible concessions)
Next favorite: "To defeat your enemy, you must first be his friend." (Value of intelligence: Find out everything about a potential foe.)

Sorry but I am rather fond of Sun Tzu.

nonsense you should never be sorry for something you like and are proud of.

I was referring to tactic's deployed , of course all the basic principles will always be around such as your examples plus the basic principles of, flanking, suppression fire, combined attacks, obstacles, both man mand and natural being used for defence, and so on and all those theory's of 'Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected'(thats my favourite).

Napoleon bonaparte probabaly even read these teachings, hence his saying. "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake", following the same lines as the example as above and a smart enemy hits you where you think you are the safest.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

This is no longer a What-If, now it's masturbation!

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I don't think we have kept to the format of 'what If' for a while now

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

Well Za, I think that the title of the thread pretty much started it like that.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

I'm not going to respond to that.

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Za, you are too intelligent to take insult of this kind seriously.

Who says he's serious?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

What if Hitler could shoot lighting bolts out of his @$$? Would that have won the war for Germany?

Please think twice before making this kind of stupid what-ifs. Too many military mistakes had already been made by 1944. Nothing short of a miracle could have saved Germany from defeat.

After reading a good number of books, I came to the conclusion that this is the only way Germany could have won the war.